Scottish Identity

[MrsMc]

i have started a course recently at Edinburgh Uni and been given texts and basically being told that there is no such thing as the Scottish Identity - it's more a cultural identity being the argument.

I believe this is nonsense. Some questions for the POLlers...

1. Did you know that 5/8 of the Scottish Universities are run by non-Scots?

2. Why do you think our high school students learn about the Tudors & Stewarts in history rather than about 1706 and James I?

3. Do you think it's right that English parents living in Portobello should complain when the children are given Scottish poems home to learn?

4.A Scottish man on bbc 3 (who introduces programmes) appologised for accidently saying 'wee' instead of small and said 'am i allowed to say scottish words on the bbc?', is this right? Or does it prove the theory that linguistic fascism is in use to rid Britain of the Scottish Identity?

5. Are you embrassed to talk in your broad Scots accent from wherever you were brought up?

thx in advance for any responses.

[Dadaist]

1. Did you know that 5/8 of the Scottish Universities are run by non-Scots?

I'm not sure where it says that a university in country A has to be run by someone from country A.

Universities are cosmopolitan from the bottom up - they have international students, researchers, grads and staff from a multitude of backgrounds etc. It's a constantly shifting mix too.

I would be much more concerned if 5/8 of History departments were run by Mathematicians - but I'm not sure that I would apply any other attribute as pre-requisite to running a University.

[wangi]

2. Why do you think our high school students learn about the Tudors & Stewarts in history rather than about 1706 and James I?

oh-6? I dunno, but at my school we were certainly taught about 1707 and the Act of Union.

And re the media, don't you think we'd be a bit better off with /less/ Scottish presenters? Well, certainly a more balanced representation from Scotland - we're not all in Glasgow after all...

[Dadaist]

3. Do you think it's right that English parents living in Portobello should complain when the children are given Scottish poems home to learn?

I don't think the fact that they are English has anything to do with it. They could also have been Cambodian. I would defend their right to complain even if the substance of the complaint was rubbish. I think it's much more scary to be able to say that this or that complaint was right or wrong based on racial motives!

[Dadaist]

4.A Scottish man on bbc 3 (who introduces programmes) appologised for accidently saying 'wee' instead of small and said 'am i allowed to say scottish words on the bbc?', is this right? Or does it prove the theory that linguistic fascism is in use to rid Britain of the Scottish Identity?

Maybe he just thought that not everybody would understand what "wee" meant, and was asking a general question about regional dialect use on a national channel.

Can you provide us with a link to the proponents of the theory of "linguistic fascism" you mention?

[Porty]

I think it's much more scary to be able to say that this or that complaint was right or wrong based on racial motives!

Scottish people may or may not have an identity but we are certainly not a race.

[Dadaist]

I think it's much more scary to be able to say that this or that complaint was right or wrong based on racial motives!

Scottish people may or may not have an identity but we are certainly not a race.

I say "racial motives" as Mrs Mc chose to mention that the parents were "English". I wasn't referring to any persons or thing Scottish.

[Porty]

1. Did you know that 5/8 of the Scottish Universities are run by non-Scots?

I didn't. What's the significance? I'm sure there are students from all over the world at scottish uni's. Surely its the best person for the job not where they come from? Equal opportunities etc


And, why do you say 5/8?

[Porty]

I think it's much more scary to be able to say that this or that complaint was right or wrong based on racial motives!

Scottish people may or may not have an identity but we are certainly not a race.

I say "racial motives" as Mrs Mc chose to mention that the parents were "English". I wasn't referring to any persons or thing Scottish.

So you mean the English are a race?

[Dadaist]

Scottish people may or may not have an identity but we are certainly not a race.

I say "racial motives" as Mrs Mc chose to mention that the parents were "English". I wasn't referring to any persons or thing Scottish.

So you mean the English are a race?

I don't know. I was making reference to my perception of the tone in which the statement was made and my (possibly mistaken) perception of an Anglo-Saxon stereotype which to my mind was interchangeable with any other kind of "outsider" (my quote) who was "living in Portobello".

[Porty]

It is just a bug bear of mine.

[sunnyporty]

I live 20 minutes over the Border and have done for 30 years and to some people down here you'd think I was from another planet.
There was a survey done by BT on which accent people like to here over the phone and the two that were equal top were Scottish and Geordy, so I think that says it all

[Dadaist]

It was Jethart hand ba day the other day. I know an uppie.

[Pal of Porty]

i have started a course recently at Edinburgh Uni and been given texts and basically being told that there is no such thing as the Scottish Identity - it's more a cultural identity being the argument.

I believe this is nonsense. Some questions for the POLlers...

1. Did you know that 5/8 of the Scottish Universities are run by non-Scots?

2. Why do you think our high school students learn about the Tudors & Stewarts in history rather than about 1706 and James I?

3. Do you think it's right that English parents living in Portobello should complain when the children are given Scottish poems home to learn?

4.A Scottish man on bbc 3 (who introduces programmes) appologised for accidently saying 'wee' instead of small and said 'am i allowed to say scottish words on the bbc?', is this right? Or does it prove the theory that linguistic fascism is in use to rid Britain of the Scottish Identity?

5. Are you embrassed to talk in your broad Scots accent from wherever you were brought up?

thx in advance for any responses.

Best of luck on your course and here is my response to your questions:

1. Of no relevance to me whatsover - if they are good enough to do their job then I am happy.

2. I agree totally with pupils learning about Scottish history but only in the context of its place in a much wider historical context.

3. If they were the only poems the pupils ever got taught, Yes. But as part of a balanced curriculum, No.

4&5. I am not embarrassed to talk in a Scottish accent and it is part of who I am. However this should not be an excuse for not speaking 'proper' English i.e. in a format that would be recognisable to people who live outside Scotland.

[Pal of Porty]

1. Did you know that 5/8 of the Scottish Universities are run by non-Scots?

As an aside - I believe there are 14 Scottish Universities. What do you mean by 5/8?

[bellybabe]

Was this thread aimed only at Scots living in Portobello? It seems to be, judging by the questions...

1) No, I didn't know. I don't know who runs any of the English ones either, including the one I went to.

2) I am shamefully igorant of both of these subjects (product of a Fatcher education, me... Only learned about the industrial revolution, and how great capitalism is... ) but I did alter the provenance of the quote I just put in on the smoking thread from James I to James VI.

3) I am happy for my son to bring home Scottish poems to learn, but that's because my partner is Scottish and is able to help him. Were I a single parent, or partner to an Englisher, I would simply be a little concerned that I would be unable to help him with his homework, just as I will one day be utterly unable to help him with his physics homework. I would also struggle were he to bring home poems in Cornish dialect. Or the North East dialect. Or pretty much any. Chaucer would be hard. I think if people are struggling with their education because they are expected to do things at home that parents can't help them with, then people have a right to complain, even if some of us might think their complaint is silly.

4) I think it's daft that he did that, but I think linguistic fascism has long been a part of GB, and has not just affected the Scots - it's no so very many years since RP was the only acceptable way of speaking on the BBC.

5) There is no broad Scots accent where I was brought up. But I was used as the example of "how funny they talk up here" in my linguistics seminars at uni. And once, when I went away from home by 50 miles or so, I was told I talked "like a Why-Don't-You kid".

BB[/quote]

[MrsMc]

Thanks you for all your responses.

It is unfortunate that some people misunderstood my tone, I am not Anti-English. One of my dearest and best friends is a white-settler.

I understand the points re Cambodian,Spanish, South African. It's funny you mention that because in my class we have people from all over the world. They cannot understand why the Scots in class are so passionate about the discussions. Shouldn't we have chosen an altogether different Nation than anyone in the class to make it fair?

My English friend said "Why can't you just detach yourself from it?" Easy for her to say... I think if we are studying Culture , we should be studying British Culture - not Scottish culture - as we are part of the United Kingdom. When I fill in a job application - I am British.

I heard to day that the tartan-making company in the Borders (that has been busy since the 19th century) is designing the tartan for our new Scottish regiment. The resultant design will be put out to tender. I think this is Capatalism gone daft.

I will read this lot again. As I say I have justed started learning all this and my head is buzzing.

p.s. Anyone see the new series "Scots" on BBC2 the other night. Fantastic. That's where I learned about the linguistic fascism - they had many academics from all over Britain speaking about "Auld Scots" language.

[MrsMc]

BB,

If I lived in another country, I would make sure my child went to classes to learn the language.

Where's our classes? Less than 50,000 speak Gaelic - it's no longer even registered as a language. It hurts.

[MrsMc]

1. Did you know that 5/8 of the Scottish Universities are run by non-Scots?

As an aside - I believe there are 14 Scottish Universities. What do you mean by 5/8?

I will pull my lecturer up on this then as it was him who gave us the text. I meant 5 out of 8.

[MrsMc]

1. Did you know that 5/8 of the Scottish Universities are run by non-Scots?

I'm not sure where it says that a university in country A has to be run by someone from country A.

Universities are cosmopolitan from the bottom up - they have international students, researchers, grads and staff from a multitude of backgrounds etc. It's a constantly shifting mix too.

I would be much more concerned if 5/8 of History departments were run by Mathematicians - but I'm not sure that I would apply any other attribute as pre-requisite to running a University.

that's the argument we've been given -its the best people for the job - so to speak.

The Scottish people who run our institions like NHS, Pensions, Transport etc etc are controlled by Westminster.

All the Creative sector, the Arts Council, Theatres are all run by foreigners. This means that Contemporary Cultures growth in Scotland is stumped because why should foreigners understand or be able to rate the Scottishness of our Arts when our stereotypical "Culture" is seen as a Walter Scott romantisised nightmare! There is a huge need for financial backing of Scottish music (i.e. NEMIS is being shut down - big campaign to keep it running). While "Scottish Opera receives £20million a year! Something funny there IMO.

[Porty]

NEMIS is being shut down -

I fear that will be their nemesis.

While "Scottish Opera receives £20million a year! Something funny there IMO.

I think you are onto something I just had a deek at their website and this season they are performing Don Giovanni and Carmen. Surely it ought to be Jock MacTavish and Senga?

[bellybabe]

BB,

If I lived in another country, I would make sure my child went to classes to learn the language.

Where's our classes? Less than 50,000 speak Gaelic - it's no longer even registered as a language. It hurts.

Mrs Mac,

As a linguist myself, I would do the same. However, as you point out, there are no classes I can send my children to to learn the language here, because nobody speaks it. When I ask my (Scottish) partner what a gaelic word means, I generally get "No idea" as a response. So I don't think it really compares to, say, living in Spain and making sure the family all speak Spanish. I'm actually passionate about languages. I speak five. But I also would want my children to get the most from their education (and would like it to be rounded and multi-cultural), and wouldn't want to feel they were struggling simply because they have a parent who, through no fault of her own, is English!

I think being passionate about one's culture is a great thing; I just feel there's a fine line between being proud of it, and excluding anyone who doesn't share it. I live in Scotland; I love it. I also love my original home and the city I lived in before coming here. I am passionate about Porty, and passionate about "home". My kids see themselves as Scottish, and rightly so; but they would still struggle with some of the body of Scots poetry, just as I struggle with some English poetry.

Good luck with your studies.

BB

[seanie]

Where's our classes? Less than 50,000 speak Gaelic - it's no longer even registered as a language. It hurts.

The Gaelic Language Bill gave it status as an official language last year, albeit not on an equal footing to English. The 2001 Census registered just over 58,000 speakers.

[MrsMc]

NEMIS is being shut down -

I fear that will be their nemesis.

While "Scottish Opera receives £20million a year! Something funny there IMO.

I think you are onto something I just had a deek at their website and this season they are performing Don Giovanni and Carmen. Surely it ought to be Jock MacTavish and Senga?

Bet your great fun on a night out.

[MrsMc]

BB,

If I lived in another country, I would make sure my child went to classes to learn the language.

Where's our classes? Less than 50,000 speak Gaelic - it's no longer even registered as a language. It hurts.

Mrs Mac,

As a linguist myself, I would do the same. However, as you point out, there are no classes I can send my children to to learn the language here, because nobody speaks it. When I ask my (Scottish) partner what a gaelic word means, I generally get "No idea" as a response. So I don't think it really compares to, say, living in Spain and making sure the family all speak Spanish. I'm actually passionate about languages. I speak five. But I also would want my children to get the most from their education (and would like it to be rounded and multi-cultural), and wouldn't want to feel they were struggling simply because they have a parent who, through no fault of her own, is English!

I think being passionate about one's culture is a great thing; I just feel there's a fine line between being proud of it, and excluding anyone who doesn't share it. I live in Scotland; I love it. I also love my original home and the city I lived in before coming here. I am passionate about Porty, and passionate about "home". My kids see themselves as Scottish, and rightly so; but they would still struggle with some of the body of Scots poetry, just as I struggle with some English poetry.

Good luck with your studies.

BB

Thanks BB, I understand your points.

I'll maybe write more as I go along this course - SOME people have articulate and relevant points that can help my understanding of such matters..

[Porty]

Bet your great fun on a night out.

Mc the knife.

[Novastar]

3. Do you think it's right that English parents living in Portobello should complain when the children are given Scottish poems home to learn?

I think they have every right to complain (particularly if the word "Rabbie Burns" are at the bottom). They can also complain about having to learn English poetry, Welsh poetry and Irish Poetry. What is the point in *£!% poetry.... IMHO they should spend the valuable hours you have in school to learn something useful and preductive. Like physics or DT.

and I'm not just saying that because I was awful at English at school

4.A Scottish man on bbc 3 (who introduces programmes) appologised for accidently saying 'wee' instead of small and said 'am i allowed to say scottish words on the bbc?', is this right? Or does it prove the theory that linguistic fascism is in use to rid Britain of the Scottish Identity?

5. Are you embrassed to talk in your broad Scots accent from wherever you were brought up?

It's not just Scots. A woman from Yorkshire got complaints (from sad pensioners in the home counties probably) when she was on Radio 4. I think they need to get a life. If I can understand Southern's and Scots (well most of the time), I'm sure Southern's can understand Northern's and Scots.

and I'm not at all embarased to speak like I do. Only problem with it is I work on a help desk so have to tone it down a bit sometimes otherwise people South of Northampton can't understand me.

[Novastar]

BB,

If I lived in another country, I would make sure my child went to classes to learn the language.

Where's our classes? Less than 50,000 speak Gaelic - it's no longer even registered as a language. It hurts.

Do many people speak Gaelic? I don't know anyone who does but we still seem to get loads of programing on TV in a language I don't understand (every morning on BBC, Thursday evening on BBC2, and 1/2 - 1 hour on Saturday and Sunday afternoons on ITV).

[bellybabe]

Do many people speak Gaelic? I don't know anyone who does but we still seem to get loads of programing on TV in a language I don't understand (every morning on BBC, Thursday evening on BBC2, and 1/2 - 1 hour on Saturday and Sunday afternoons on ITV).

That's it, Nova, you've given yourself away now. You're a big Gaelic Bob the Builder fan, aren't you?