Blair playing a blinder

[Porty]

You could have fooled me then!

I fear that Trigger out of Only Fool and Horses could fool you.

[Gemini]

You could have fooled me then!

I fear that Trigger out of Only Fool and Horses could fool you.

You don't though - so where does that leave Trigger ?

What about Clare's facts? are you disputing them? if a yes - then please give us some evidence.

[wangi]

G, I'm a bit confused how an opinion by Clare Short suddenly becomes facts... "she observes that Blair feels justified in centralising power to himself because he believes in his extraordinary personal achievement in winning two landslide election victories" - opinion; "Short argues that Labour was already headed for a big win while John Smith was still alive" - opinion; "Thus, fewer people voted for Blair than for Attlee, Gaitskell, Callaghan and Wilson (even in the elections that they lost), and Kinnock in 1992" - a fact I guess, but a pretty meaningless one!

[Porty]

Porty - just some more facts
Taken from Clare Short's new Book!
Short argues that Labour was already headed for a big win while John Smith was still alive.

I believe Short argues correctly, Smith would have won handsomely. I don't know what would have happened with Smith come re-election time but we all know what happened with Tony in 2001: A majority of 165 and 41% of the vote. Which Clare manages to paint as a poor performance.

She also analyses the votes in post-war elections. In 2001 Labour received fewer votes than in any except 1983 and 1987. Thus, fewer people voted for Blair than for Attlee, Gaitskell, Callaghan and Wilson (even in the elections that they lost), and Kinnock in 1992.[/b]

Clare (whom I admire immensely) certainly knows her audience will take things she says at face value.
Allow me to illustrate with some facts:
2001 was the lowest turnout for an election, low turnouts are common when the electorate perceive a one horse race. Everyone's voting numbers were down. Still, Tony got 41% of the vote and returned a a total number of 412 Labour seats, a majority of 165. It was the second largest Post War Majority by ANY Party. He also holds the record of 179. It was also the second largest number of seats won by any Post War Political party, no guesses for who got the highest. like I say: wake up and smell the Coffee.
Allow me to give you a few more facts about the Old Labour glory years and lets take Tony''s worst Year, 2005 as the barometer.
Tony's Worst Year
Seats won = 356
Majority= 62
Percentage of Popular Vote = 35.9%
Kinnochio's Best Year
Seats Won =229
Majority= (He handed Maggie a 144 seat majority)
Percentage of popular vote = 30.8%
Harold's Record
Biggest Majority =4 Seats!!
Highest Number of seats won= 317
Highest percentage of popular vote achieved = 44.1%
When last elected in 1974 OL got a lower share of the vote than the Tories and formed a minority government (-33 seats)
Clare you are full of it and Gemini is lapping it up.

[dccairns]

Porty
Got any info on Maggie's landslides? Just because parties win a victory under a questionable voting system, it doesn't mean they provide quality government, as evidenced by both Maggie and Tony. Just remember that more people chose not to vote for them than to vote for them. The Lib Dems polled around 31% of the vote in edinburgh in the last election, whilst Labour won around 33%, yet the Lib Dems only have one (I think) seat as compared to Labour's many. Call that representative or democratic? I don't.

[Porty]

PortyGot any info on Maggie's landslides?

See above under Kinnochio. Her landslides were not as big as Tony's
I am using identical voting systems to illustrate the performances of Old V New labour. I accept that if we agree to make up a ficticious voting system then the comparison may be different.
Dc, do you have any facts to offer us or is everything just so unfair?

[dccairns]

I have not said anything was unfair and have offered plenty of examples of the moral bankruptcy of Phoney Tony and New Labour.
You have chosen to ignore certain points or arguments you know you are unable to refute.
All I am suggesting is that you take your head out of Tony's a**e and start to think a little instead of swallowing New Labour spin hook, line and sinker.

[Porty]

You have chosen to ignore certain points or arguments you know you are unable to refute.

I have been trying to keep the discussion on a factual basis. Its very difficult with yourself and Gem. Firstly, you believe that any opinion expressed by Monbiot, Short et al is a Fact. And when I put forward FACTS you claim they are allegations or opinions.
I have provided cold hard evidence that this Country prefers New Labour to Old by a massive margin. All you have to offer in return is a complaint about the voting system. Do you think you are persuadinng anyone?

[dccairns]

Don't lump Gemini and me together. We are not clones; we are both independent beings with our own views and opinions. I have not made any comment about whether what you have said is fact or opinion and I do not blindly follow what Monbiot or Short say. On the other hand, you believe all the pap that you are fed by Tony and New Labour.
The most unforgivable thing Blair has done is to take us into a bloody and unjustifiable war against Iraq. He lied to the country about WMD. He has not apologised to anyone for any of this. These are all facts, not opinions.

[Porty]

Don't lump Gemini and me together. We are not clones; we are both independent beings with our own views and opinions.

Point accepted and I apologise. In any case Gemini seems to have skulked off bowed, lets hope she is not broken.

I have not made any comment about whether what you have said is fact or opinion.

I know, it seems that recognition of the substance of another's argument is beyond you.

On the other hand, you believe all the pap that you are fed by Tony and New Labour.

Another unsubstantiated statement and it couldn't be further from the truth.

The most unforgivable thing Blair has done is to take us into a *** and unjustifiable war against Iraq. He lied to the country about WMD. He has not apologised to anyone for any of this. These are all facts, not opinions.

I have already unreservedly achkowledged the mistakes that he made and the fact that we should not have gone to War with Iraq. I recognise it as a fact but i do not see it as being as straightforward as you do.
Saddam played a game of Chess and used his people as Pawns, he lost and so did thousands of his people. They were largely innocent victims who perished because their leader, a proven mass murderer who had used WMD in the past, refused to be transparent.
You say it is unforgiveable, that is an opinion. I say TB got re-elected with a substantial majority,a fact, I put it to you that this means a hell of a lot of people have either forgiven or didn't think he was guilty. If you want to argue that the War is unforgiveable can i ask that you provide a quantitative analysis to support that opinion.
And over and above all of that, it is clear that any person who could realsitically hope to have been PM at the time the decision to go to War needed to be taken, would have made the same decision as Blair. Even with hindsight, they still acknowledge this.

[Gemini]

Don't lump Gemini and me together. We are not clones; we are both independent beings with our own views and opinions.

Point accepted and I apologise.

I have not made any comment about whether what you have said is fact or opinion.

I know, it seems that recognition of the substance of another's argument is beyond you.

On the other hand, you believe all the pap that you are fed by Tony and New Labour.

Another unsubstantiated statement and it couldn't be further from the truth.

The most unforgivable thing Blair has done is to take us into a *** and unjustifiable war against Iraq. He lied to the country about WMD. He has not apologised to anyone for any of this. These are all facts, not opinions.

I have already unreservedly achkowledged the mistakes that he made and the fact that we should not have gone to War with Iraq. I recognise it as a fact but i do not see it as being as straightforward as you. Saddam played a game of Chess and used his people as Pawns, he lost and so did some of his people.
Utter nonsense : if you care to take the time, perhaps you should read this.http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le1221.htm
You say it is unforgiveable, thats an opinion. I say he got re-elected with a substantial majority,a fact, I put it to you that this means a hell of a lot of people have either forgiven or didn't think he was guilty.
dccairns's opinion is shared by countless millions - therefore a fact!
Porty, my opinion on your statement :
this means a hell of a lot of people have either forgiven or didn't think he was guilty.
He will never be forgiven - the dissinformation spread throughout the tabloids, now strangely enough - labour controlled! only give one side of the story. How truly informed are the British electorate of the facts?
If you want to argue that the War is unforgiveable can i ask that you provide a quantitative analysis to support that opinion.
How stupid is this statement?
And over and above all of that it is clear that any person who could realsitically hope to be have been PM at the time the decision to go to War needed to be taken would have taken the same decision as Blair did.
I don't think John Smith would have taken our country to war!
Even with hindsight, they still admit this.

Well they have to - don't they! But would they have felt the same if they had known the truth when the decision was made - obviously Robin Cook,Clare Short,Tam Dayell had the intellect and the foresight to see the bigger picture and the inevitable ramifications, now manifesting on the streets of London.

[Porty]

dccairns's opinion is shared by countless millions - therefore a fact!

You really do struggle with fact definition don't you? Millions of people believe aliens have abducted them.

I have already unreservedly acknowledged the mistakes that he made and the fact that we should not have gone to War with Iraq. I recognise it as a fact but i do not see it as being as straightforward as you. Saddam played a game of Chess and used his people as Pawns, he lost and so did some of his people.

Utter nonsense :

Gemini tut-tut, you edited out some facts, which I know you like to shy away from. The omission of facts may make any statement look nonsense, as I'm constantly pointing out to you about many of your own statements.
I said:

They were largely innocent victims who perished because their leader, a proven mass murderer who had used WMD in the past, refused to be transparent.

To which you responded "utter nonsense" Are you claiming that Saddam was not a mass murderer, never used WMD and was totally transparent with the UN?
You have some very strange ideas about who had a realistic chance of being PM at the time of the decision. John Smith? He was the most likely out of the bunch you mention and he had been dead for 10 years. Like I say, get real. In any case Smith would have done the same as Blair, its unequivocal.
Your attempts to correlate London with Iraq are subverse and perverse. Let's assume London was perpetrated by Al Q who claimed responsibility for 9/11. Had the UK/US decided against invading Iraq do you think Al Q would just have folded? "well we got away with one huge slaughter let's just call it a day" DOH!!

[Novastar]

One of my favourite television quotes:
To stay sane, never talk about politics, religion or toast.
Seems kind of apt

[Porty]

It does seem apt but hey its a bit fun with the numpties.

[dccairns]

Porty
You said ..."at the time the decision to go to War needed to be taken". This is a huge assumption. No decision to go to war was needed. Blair could have told Dubya he was on his own for his oil outing.
And I don't think it is a fact that millions of people thought Blair was not guilty or they had forgiven him. Another assumption.
And we all know what happens when we make asumptions, don't we childre? Yes, that's right, we make an ASS of U and ME.
Who's the numpty now!

[foxy]

Your attempts to correlate London with Iraq are subverse and perverse. Let's assume London was perpetrated by Al Q who claimed responsibility for 9/11. Had the UK/US decided against invading Iraq do you think Al Q would just have folded? "well we got away with one huge slaughter let's just call it a day" DOH!!

Totally valid point IMO

[dccairns]

In response to the previous post, we don't yet know the reason for the attacks on London. The Madrid bombers claimed they carried out their attacks because of Spain's involvement in the Iraq war and the continuing presence of their troops in Iraq. Violence breeds violence, thus if one country launches unprovoked military action on another, is it so unbelievable that the action might prove unpopular and provoke a violent reaction, like when Hitler invaded Poland? And, surprise, surprise, there has already been a number of anti-Islamic incidents since last Thursday's attacks.

Before the war Iraq had never had any terrorist links; now it is an Al-Qaida training ground. I wonder why? Is it not possible that the war on Iraq has fuelled fanatics' hatred of the west and exacerbated the situation?

The truth is that we yet don't know that the UK involvement in military action in Iraq provoked this attack on London but on the other had we don't know that it didn't.

[Porty]

Porty
You said ..."at the time the decision to go to War needed to be taken". This is a huge assumption. No decision to go to war was needed. Blair could have told Dubya he was on his own for his oil outing.

Now you are splitting hairs, a decision whether to go to War needed to be taken, I was not saying it was a fait accomplli. My point was that every realistic contender for the position of PM, including the incumbent and the leader of the opposition would have taken the country to War. …And Gemini, even if the whole truth had been available at the time they still would have gone to War. They all said so in the run up to the election. (2 more facts for you)

Furthermore. I accept that there is a possibility that Smith, Dalyell, Short or Cook may not gone have to War. Is that the best argument you have? Smith's dead and the other 3 would struggle to win the leadership election if they started their own Political Parties. No-one in their right mind could say any of them were realistic PM contenders. You will be quoting Charles Kennedy, Gyles Brandreth or maybe even Rosie Kane next.

And I don't think it is a fact that millions of people thought Blair was not guilty or they had forgiven him.

There you go with what you THINK again!! Pray tell me what are you going to use as supportive evidence for your THOUGHTS? Is it the usual? "lots of other people think that too":roll:

To summarise what you are saying: everyone thinks Blair is a mass murderer, and no-one will ever forgive him.

Yet despite this damnation he still manages to get elected as Prime Minister of GB by a huge margin and is currently the President of the EEC. I tell you what, he must be some Dude, a politician and statesman of great repute to be able to shake that Monkey off his back. Remind me are you arguing For or Against Blair?

Iraq was a blemish on Blair's reputation not a fatal blow. I know you think that's terrible and I happen to feel the same way but its a fact and there's not a lot I can do but accept it and move on whilst enjoying our bouyant economy. I suggest you do the same.

Allow me to end on an assumption; you are now in full agreement with me as a lot of people think I am right.

[Porty]

In response to the previous post, we don't yet know the reason for the attacks on London.

A fine sentiment but unfortunately Gemini disagrees with you and according to her so do quite a few others:

But would they have felt the same (about Iraq) if they had known the truth when the decision was made - obviously Robin Cook,Clare Short,Tam Dayell had the intellect and the foresight to see the bigger picture and the inevitable ramifications, now manifesting on the streets of London.

I wonder why? Is it not possible that the war on Iraq has fuelled fanatics' hatred of the west and exacerbated the situation?

Not only is it possible, it is likely. However, it is also almost certain (assumption) that GB would have been a target of AL Q sooner or later, unless you are in a position to confirm otherwise? It is also every bit as likely that that potential terrorists were imbued by the success of 9/11 and a chance for "glory" became more realistic and helped recruitment.

The truth is that we yet don't know that the UK involvement in military action in Iraq provoked this attack on London but on the other had we don't know that it didn't.

How gracious of you to say but it hasn't stopped the pair of you condeming our PM and our Government and laying the blame for London firmly at their door. You are prepared to apportion guilt by assumption. Ironically you have hung yourself in the process. (petard)

[dccairns]

How dare you say that I am an aplogist for the terrorists.

You had better take that back immediately.

[Gemini]

Porty wrote>
If you want to argue that the War is unforgiveable can i ask that you provide a quantitative analysis to support that opinion. << END QUOTE

I hope you take the time to read this Porty!

http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/

After wading through this web-site, I was ashamed to call myself British.
Not only was the decision to go to war with Iarq determined quite a few months before the actual declaration - the governments of both the US and UK, had to make the case around the decision!
It is unforgiveable



Porty, I fear that your main interest in the new Labour Party is all about economy, and how it will benefit you and other small business's. I expect that is why you chose new Labour before, (I am assuming your traditional Tory party), obviously New Labour offered more incentive?
But much of a muchness wouldn't you say - Profit before People!

I speak only of myself and dccairns here, therefore no assumtion's purely fact.
We are appalled at the tactics of New Labour, more especially TB.
We have a country with a leader who is unable to stand up for his people, for fear of loosing his moment in history!

[Porty]

You had better take that back immediately.

I would have done if I'd been here, it has been bothering me since I posted. Dc I apologise unconditionally. I attempted to make a point in a clumsy and wholly inappropriate manner, especially as far as you are concerned. I hope you can forgive me. I am going to edit it out

[Porty]

It is unforgiveable

Im almost fed up saying this but that is your opinion. If you want to add "In my opinion" to that statement I will have no issue. If even one person forgives the decision then it is forgiveable, 70% of the GB electorate voted for parties that either did take us to War or would have taken us to War. They have either forgiven or didn't have a problem with it in the first place.

Porty, I fear that your main interest in the new Labour Party is all about economy, and how it will benefit you and other small business's.

Not at all, througout this debate I have illustrated how the British people have shown overwhelming support for New Labour. I can't get them elected all on my own. Old labour could barely get elected and once they did get elected they never got re-elected. Its not just me Gemini its tens of millions of people.

I expect that is why you chose new Labour before, (I am assuming your traditional Tory party), obviously New Labour offered more incentive?

Once again your assumption is completely groundless and false.

I speak only of myself and dccairns here, therefore no assumtion's purely fact.

Finally, we are getting somewhere, i do not dispute that when you speak of what you and dc believe in, its a fact that you believe in it. So what diifference does that make to everyone else? Your opinion is not worth a hoot when it comes to running this country.

I am saddened that you are ashamed to be British and its not because I am patriotic.

[Gemini]

It is unforgiveable

Im almost fed up saying this but that is your opinion. If you want to add "In my opinion" to that statement I will have no issue. If even one person forgives the decision then it is forgiveable, 70% of the GB electorate voted for parties that either did take us to War or would have taken us to War. They have either forgiven or didn't have a problem with it in the first place end>>

It would be interesting to do a poll on this

Porty, I fear that your main interest in the new Labour Party is all about economy, and how it will benefit you and other small business's.

Not at all, througout this debate I have illustrated how the British people have shown overwhelming support for New Labour. I can't get them elected all on my own.



Old labour could barely get elected and once they did get elected they never got re-elected. Its not just me Gemini its tens of millions of people.

I cannot dispute this fact! But it is unfortunate that so many were led by the nose,and ill informed of what new labour is all about. Maybe next time?

I expect that is why you chose new Labour before, (I am assuming your traditional Tory party), obviously New Labour offered more incentive?

Once again your assumption is completely groundless and false.

Fair enough

I speak only of myself and dccairns here, therefore no assumtion's purely fact.

Finally, we are getting somewhere, i do not dispute that when you speak of what you and dc believe in, its a fact that you believe in it. So what diifference does that make to everyone else? Your opinion is not worth a hoot when it comes to running this country.

Granted - and neither is yours - however you hit the nail on the head when you wrote :
Your opinion is not worth a hoot when it comes to running this country

By all accounts, TB does not give a hoot about anyone's opinion, apart from his own

I am saddened that you are ashamed to be British and its not because I am patriotic.

Neither am I

[Porty]

It is unforgiveable

Im almost fed up saying this but that is your opinion. If you want to add "In my opinion" to that statement I will have no issue. If even one person forgives the decision then it is forgiveable, 70% of the GB electorate voted for parties that either did take us to War or would have taken us to War. They have either forgiven or didn't have a problem with it in the first place

It would be interesting to do a poll on this

Now you are having a laugh. You require a Poll to establish that just one person from the 70% who voted Labour and Tory at the election of only 10 weeks ago, either forgives Blair or doesn't have an issue? Why not try commonsense instead of a Poll? You could try thinking of the election as a poll, I'm assuming everyone else does.

I am pleased that you have acceded that in terms of electability and being in much stronger position to Govern, New Labour are far superior to Old Labour. After all it was 1964 when OL last formed a majority Government and even then it was by only 4 seats. They subsequently failed to get re-elected. Its a bit churlish, unfair and insulting of you to claim that the turnaround is all down to the electorate being mis-led or ill-informed but I guess its the only option you have left.

BTW I know a numpty when I see one and you ain't

[rathbone]

" So they argued through the night
black was black and white was white
and walked away, both knowing they were right."
Phil Ochs

[Dadaist]

....thanks for that - here is another piece of Phil Ochs' wisdom :

Come, get out of the way, boys
Quick, get out of the way
You'd better watch what you say, boys
Better watch what you say
We've rammed in your harbor and tied to your port
And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short
So bring your daughters around to the port
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
We pick and choose as please, boys
Pick and choose as please
You'd best get down on your knees, boys
Best get down on your knees
We're hairy and horny and ready to shack
And we don't care if you're yellow or black
Just take off your clothes and lay down on your back
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
Our boots are needing a shine, boys
Boots are needing a shine
But our Coca-Cola is fine, boys
Coca-Cola is fine
We've got to protect all our citizens fair
So we'll send a battalion for everyone there
And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
And dump the reds in a pile, boys
Dump the reds in a pile
You'd better wipe off that smile, boys
Better wipe off that smile
We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
And we'll find you a leader that you can't elect
Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
And clean the johns with a rag, boys
Clean the johns with a rag
If you like you can use your flag, boys
If you like you can use your flag
We've got too much money we're looking for toys
And guns will be guns and boys will be boys
But we'll gladly pay for all we destroy
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
Please stay off of the grass, boys
Please stay off of the grass
Here's a kick in the ass, boys
Here's a kick in the ass
We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock
We've done it before, so why all the shock
We're the biggest and the toughest kids on the block
And we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
And when we butchered your sons, boys
When we butchered your sons
Have a stick of our gum, boys
Have a stick of our bubble gum
We own half the world, oh say can you see
And the name for our profits is democracy
So, like it or not, you will have to be free
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

[rathbone]

Not to mention....

"The Liberals - ten degrees to the left of centre in good times, ten degrees to the right of centre if it affects them personally. "


Tread carefully when you walk on Arthur's Seat, his ashes are scattered there.

[Dadaist]

Excuse me if I borrow Porty's original "olympics" theme, but at least now we are done with the opening ceremony of this argument, and have seen the enormous army of smug UK and American athletes walk past.

Health Warning :

Those of you who choose to wade through this with me should know that I count Porty as a pal and have done for a while. My insults are not intended to be personal and exist only in the context of this discussion. I welcome the same or worse from him. I also defend his right to argue whatever he pleases and count his opinion as having equal weight to mine. If you are likely to be offended by partisan thought please stop reading now.

end of Health Warning

Porty has presented us with a car crash of a case for the prosecution and done his level best to rubbish Gemini and dc with some insults he must have found in my "not good enough" tray. Maraschino on the trifle was calling dc a "terrorist sympathiser" which may have been graciously forgiven by her, but, especially as he likes to lump all Labour voters as a homogenous blob of Blairite cheerleading, I take rather personally; because if he applies an epithet like that to peace loving dissenters, he must surely think worse of the likes of me who dare to hoist our flags slightly higher up the militant flagpole.



Porty. Eight or so lines of achievment for eight years of government. Wowsers.
And you don't even quote TB's 1997 "heritage of hope" speech where he said "Together you and I will begin to build the new society".Plus ca change.

It's almost not worth our time to pick apart those few things you did mention, but you dare mention Cherie "Bent" Booth at the start of a defence of democracy? Who elected her? So what if "by all accounts" they contributed this to that - by all accounts Carole Caplin has been channeling messages from the dead to La Blair, a la Hillary and Nancy. Yes, democracy needs leaders whose spouses speak to the dead. I'm sure they've learned to blank out the noise of Keir Hardie turning in his grave.

In an argument like this, it doesn't take long until tragedy turns to irony and irony turns to farce. Tragic that you choose to support Blair specifically, not the people of London or the emergency services in respect to the bombing, and not the electorate, or the Labour Party, or even government or other workers who have supposedly generated the success you attribute to the honourable member for Texas North. No, it's Blair who played the blinder.

You would like us to give Tony "credit". Mass murderers, all of them, deserve a fair trial, not credit. If the man who defrauded a corporation is, by your definition, "scum", one who illegally bombs the innocent for spurious reasons must deserve far harsher language, not plaudits.

When the Labour party was (you say) unelectable, it's down to your own
personal Jesus and his disciples to save the day and kick out the socialists. Fine, that is now part of UK Labour history. But you completely fail to mention the blatant unelectability of the Conservatives and give
credit where it's not due to Tony again when they win elections, whilst the tories wonder if they can ever buy back the rights to the original recordings of their policies.

Being a Blairite is one thing. But your approach to Gemini and dc when
they picked you up on what you had said was a parallell of New Labour's removal of the word "ethical" from their original (pre-9/11) foreign policy.
That tinge you felt as you decided only to deal with election results and not dead children was your conscience.
Just keep suppressing it - it *is* all about numbers and power. When you kept on about election victories, to me you sounded like a spoilt kid chastising his baby sister because he has more easter eggs than her.

You really should listen to the 35 minutes or so of the press conference Blair gave at the end of the G8.
That man really has more brass neck than the cops at the Rodney King trial - he hands more power to the people who have been spiriting profit out of Africa for decades, whilst the assembled journalists scratch their heads at his non-answers to questions which he redefines even if he is asked them.

It was a triumph of spin and personal charm over substance, just as the whole cursed New Labour project has been. Image and spurious announcements are the new achievements. You're certainly on the road to Blairism if you can, as you did when you first posted, celebrate being in Government for it's own sake and nothing else.

You really have turned democracy on its head, in your head. You've taken to wording your arguments such that your questions are so narrowly defined that there's no choice at all, especially your obsession with leaders being the only people who count, and winning parties being the only real choices. You've even started castigating those whose opinions differ with yours as being not worth "a hoot" because they have no immediate effect, in your perception.

(throws down gauntlet)

Sir, I demand satisfaction!

[dccairns]

Interesting article in today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondo ... 17,00.html

suggesting that tube bombs are 'linked to Iraq conflict', according to an independent think-tank.

One telling sentence reads: 'the key problem in the UK for preventing terrorism is that the country is "riding as a pillion passenger with the United States in the war against terror"'.

[mr magnolia]

I was tickled by Tony Benn's remark yesterday that Dead Teeth had espoused politics 'significantly to the left of Tony Blair'.

[dccairns]

It wouldn't be difficult.

[Porty]

I'm in barcelona at the moment and not particularly inclined to visit an intellectual socialist theme park. Maybe shall on my return? One thing I will say about Dada's health warning, it a bit like those that begin a rude statement with " don't mean to be rude" it doesn't excuse the rudeness in anyone's minds but their own. In any case the warning was not required, no offence is taken.

Blair is playing a blinder.

[Dadaist]

No, I know that you wouldn't take any offence - it was aimed at the types I encountered when I posted the riot cop pics who took me the wrong way.

Some people seem to think I count your (or anyone's) opinion as being less, which ruins the point of a good internet scrap, which is why I felt the need to put on a health warning.

Rather than excuse rudeness, I rather sought to clarify it's exact object and scope.

There's no rush - enjoy Spain - especially since Aznar got the boot!

[Dadaist]

an intellectual socialist theme park