ID Cards

[Cynthia]

In case you thought this ridiculous, expensive and dangerous idea had gone away, it hasn't and in fact is likely to become law - with financial and other implications for us all, but particularly for those who are likely to be stopped and searched more often than others....read on:
From a recent email from Our World Our Say: or see www.owos.info/idcardfreezone/
www.no2id.net, www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/privacy/id-cards.shtml

and to object and ask what way he is going to vote email Gavin Strang MP at strangg@parliament.uk, gillana@parliament.uk

"Instead of wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on compulsory ID cards as the Tory Right demand, let that money provide thousands more police officers on the beat in our local communities"
Tony Blair, 1995
If the ID Cards Bill becomes law you will have to have your fingerprints taken, iris and face scanned, and personal details entered on the database, known as the National Identity Register. You'll have to pay for this pleasure. We don't really know how much yet, but it's going to be a lot.
Experts have estimated that the ID Cards scheme will cost £19.2 billion, that's over £300 a card.
If you refuse to go and be fingerprinted and scanned then you will face a fine of up to £2,500. If you refuse to pay the fine you may go to prison.
This isn't where it stops.
If you do register you still face trouble. What if you get stopped in the street and are found without your ID Card – or some of your details are not correct?
You could find yourself up in court because you are obliged to carry your card at all times and inform the authorities of any changes in your circumstances.
Despite talk of this scheme being voluntary the truth is that it will become compulsory and the Government has enshrined in the ID Cards legislation heavy penalties to impose this deeply authoritarian scheme on the British people.
We don't have long to stop this piece of legislation. The ID Cards Bill returns to Parliament shortly for its third reading.

Carla

[Gemini]

http://eclectech.co.uk/swizz.php



Wise words:


I wouldn't call it fascism exactly, but a political system nominally controlled by an irresponsible, dumbed down electorate who are manipulated by dishonest, cynical, controlled mass media that dispense the propaganda of a corrupt political establishment can hardly be described as democracy either: Edward Zehr

=
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

=
Nothing can bring you peace but the triumph of principles: Ralph Waldo Emerson:

[Cynthia]

Thanks Gemini - really enjoyed that video clip - hadn't seen that -

folks - if you want a treat on a boring sunday evening spend a few minutes looking at this cartoon spoof on id cards (turn your speakers on as its put to music!).....as on Gemini's posting above-

If Blair pushes this through - could it be his downfall? probably why he is making it voluntary at first -
if compulsory it could be like the Poll Tax to Thatcher? Maybe its wishful thinking, but even if they reduce the cost to £100 each card, if it becomes compulsory I can see a lot of ordinary people refusing to pay...... not just for the expense but also the invasion of our civil rights, what are left of them
Carla

[Brian McCrow]

I've worked and lived in countries where people had to carry identity cards and we had to carry our passports. No-one was bothered about having to carry them. It made it easier when you needed to prove who you were.

In the USA you have to carry your driving licence when driving a car and have your insurance documents in the car. No-one seems to be bothered about that.

As a law abiding citizen I'll be more than happy to carry an ID card.

I've never understood the concerns that people have about a piece of paper or plastic which proves who you are. I currently carry many pieces of plastic identifying who I am and letting me get on buses free etc. Young people have to carry identity cards to get a drink in a bar. What's the problem about having an authorised universal ID card?

By not having an ID card we have people giving false names and addresses to the police etc. Identity fraud is becoming an increasing problem and I would like to think that a national ID card would go a long way to preventing ID fraud.

[Cynthia]

What's wrong with ID cards? In what feels like an increasing police run state - evidence below - plenty but apart from that:
- having to pay for an identity
- having biological details attached (who is to say how these will be used - eg by employers, or insurance companies for instance)
- being used as a reason to stop and search people which undoubtedly will be targetted more at young, working class, poor, black, homeless, unemployed, protesters/political activists, and other groups who experience harassment already
- they will cost the Government (ie us) a lot of money and won't work to prevent terrorism - I believe terrorists will have the best ID cards and will always carry them whereas us lot will probably lose them or forget to take them with us and pay the penalty.....
- they wouldn't stop people getting on a bus or tube with a bomb, unless we are going to be stopped and searched every time we go out of our front doors!
etc etc etc -
If you think this is paranoid, here's some recent news of the use of the anti-terrorist legislation, so called - From Globalise Resistance Newsletter (and from the press): "Not only did the Labour party bundle out that old geezer for daring to differ at the annual conference, there was the use of the Prevention of Terrorism act against daring t-shirt wearers sporting slogans such as "B-Liar" and such like. They also tried to clear the place of all but a few chosen photographers during Blair's speech. Another reason for concern is the threat to clampdown on Critical Mass, a non-violent cyclists gathering in London"
- Stopping any demos outside the Houses of Parliament
- Arrests on recent marches in Edinburgh, and on protests outside Dungavel for refusing to have handbags etc searched(even though all the unfortunate asylum seekers imprisoned in there had been moved out)
- Stopping over 30 buses on way to lawful demonstration in Auchterarder against the G8 and Police declaring the demonstration (which had permission from local Council and Police) was cancelled
etc etc etc -
Plenty of reasons to be worried about ID Cards and the drift towards a dictatorial not democratic state, backed up by ever increasing police powers ....Carla

[Gemini]

I think Tony, has heard the same message as dubya!
This must be why he is trying to introduce ID Cards.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4320586.stm

[Cynthia]

I thought you may be interested, particularly if you are opposed to ID Cards, in Gavin Strang's position and the way he will be voting in the Commons on ID Cards....taken from a letter to me dated 10th oct 2005:
Gavin Strang wrote:
"I understand the concern about the civil liberties and cost implications of the proposed scheme.
I am uneasy about ID cards in general and will be paying close attention to the Bill as it proceeds through Parliament. In particular, we must be careful that we not regard an ID card as copper-bottomed proof that someone is - or is not - the individual whose identity is represented by the card, as it would be when we put more weight on the system than it could bear that we would run into problems.
However, to some extent I will be inhibited from opposing ID Cards outright (his italics) - I stood in the General Election on the Labour party manifesto which committed us to introducing ID cards. A manifesto is the official means by which constituents know what their candidate stands for, and what to expect from that candidate if elected. While I know that you will be disappointed that I cannot give you a commitment to oppose the ID card Bill outright, I hope that you will understand that I must treat manifesto commitments extremely seriously."
The lesson from this for me - however much you appreciate an individual MP, the Manifesto is where their first loyalty lies - with implications for those who dislike the Blairite New Labour Party hugely but appreciate their local MP whoever this is from the Labour Party.
I am quite surprised by this response as Gavin Strang took a stand against the War / Attacks on Iraq and said so explicitly in his election leaflet.....an admirable stance - so why is this Manifesto commitment different? anyone tell me?
Carla

[xxxx]

I am quite surprised by this response as Gavin Strang took a stand against the War / Attacks on Iraq and said so explicitly in his election leaflet.....an admirable stance - so why is this Manifesto commitment different? anyone tell me?
Carla

I don't think 'we will assist in the invasion of Iraq' was ever a manifesto commitment in the prior election.

just checked here
doesn't even mention terrorism

[Cynthia]

Good point XXXX - I did a search through the Manifesto as link above and couldn't find ID Cards either!
I have emailed Gavin Strang to point out this Posting and my question - and offered to post his response here, or so he can post his own response -
Carla

[Porty]

What's wrong with ID cards? In what feels like an increasing police run state.

Doesn't feel like that to me.

- having to pay for an identity

"Pay" is a relative term. Most of us are already paying for identity and benefit fraud. Lie detection will help reduce that and ID cards will help reduce it further. I'm sure that those who cannot afford to pay for an identity will get assistance.
- having biological details attached (who is to say how these will be used - eg by employers, or insurance companies for instance)

That would be no-one, you included.

- being used as a reason to stop and search people which undoubtedly will be targetted more at young, working class, poor, black, homeless, unemployed, protesters/political activists, and other groups who experience harassment already

No problem whatsoever with "stopping" them. ID cards should cut down on the harrassment.

- they will cost the Government (ie us) a lot of money and won't work to prevent terrorism - I believe terrorists will have the best ID cards and will always carry them whereas us lot will probably lose them or forget to take them with us and pay the penalty.....

No-one claiims it will prevent terrorism. Would you prefer to have a scheme for the lazy and forgetful?

- they wouldn't stop people getting on a bus or tube with a bomb, unless we are going to be stopped and searched every time we go out of our front doors!
etc etc etc -

I feel you have over expectations of what can be achieved by a plastic card. Plastic cards are more commonly used to facilitate getting on buses and tubes.

If you think this is paranoid, here's some recent news of the use of the anti-terrorist legislation, so called - From Globalise Resistance Newsletter (and from the press): "Not only did the Labour party bundle out that old geezer for daring to differ at the annual conference, there was the use of the Prevention of Terrorism act against daring t-shirt wearers sporting slogans such as "B-Liar" and such like.

This incident was a travesty and out of order. The saving grace was the apologies made by everyone associated with it. up to and including the PM. Such an apology would not have happened in many countries and yo ought to be grateful you live here.
- Stopping any demos outside the Houses of Parliament
- Arrests on recent marches in Edinburgh, and on protests outside Dungavel for refusing to have handbags etc searched(even though all the unfortunate asylum seekers imprisoned in there had been moved out)
- Stopping over 30 buses on way to lawful demonstration in Auchterarder against the G8 and Police declaring the demonstration (which had permission from local Council and Police) was cancelled
etc etc etc -
Plenty of reasons to be worried about ID Cards and the drift towards a dictatorial not democratic state, backed up by ever increasing police powers ....Carla

The G8 summit was handled brilliantly. No deaths, minimum arrests, protests happened and everyone (except the never happy) went home happy.

[wangi]

Good point XXXX - I did a search through the Manifesto as link above and couldn't find ID Cards either!

Page 52 - http://www.labour.org.uk/manifesto

[Porty]

Good point XXXX - I did a search through the Manifesto as link above and couldn't find ID Cards either!

Page 52 - http://www.labour.org.uk/manifesto

Carla has a blind spot when it comes to contradictory evidence. So do a few others

[xxxx]

I don't think 'we will assist in the invasion of Iraq' was ever a manifesto commitment in the prior election.

I did say the prior election, oh for those carefree days of 2001

[Cynthia]

OK - I've tried to open and read the LP Manifesto but it won't let me read it - is there some sort of ID test to get into it or can you let me into the secret? - I get as far as the contents page and no further. Perhaps it knows an ex LP member or perhaps my computer is not up to New Labour programming....
needless to say I only wanted to access it to prove my point but you never know I might see the error of my ways once I read about why we should have bombed Iraq when there was no WMD, continue to occupy Iraq despite over 100,000 deaths and an increasing dissatisfaction in the UK and USA with this policy, why we should pay £300 for a piece of plastic to prove our ID and give up even more civil liberties with this and the increasing anti-terrorist (so called) legislation that prevents people from carrying out their right to demonstrate in a supposed democracy etc.....Carla

[wangi]

The labour manifesto would appear to have been put online by an idiot. It is in Shockwave Flash format and you are forced to flick through each page one by one, not even knowing the page number... Or being able to search.

By luck (I guess this was added after the fact) there is also a PDF version of the document a few links down. Its URL is: http://www.labour.org.uk/fileadmin/mani ... ifesto.pdf

Style over substance. Bad style at that.

[Pal of Porty]

........why we should pay £300 for a piece of plastic to prove our ID

They are on special offer at the moment - Stand Alone ID cards from £30!

[Cynthia]

Thanks Wangi - not sure thanks is the right word, but I will save that 'pleasure' for day time - it might give me nightmares if I try reading it tonight.....

Yes funny how ID Cards have suddenly went down in price - a ploy no doubt to soften up the criticism - I would be opposed even if they were free as I think they are designed to create fear, will do nothing to combate terrorism and will cost a huge amount both for the Government (us) and for individuals, both in terms of the cost of each card - even £30 is a lot to many people - especially if you lose it or forget to take it with you and are likely to be fined....although don't tell me, its a voluntary scheme to start with so no mention of fines.....

Night night, don't have nightmares, Carla

[Gemini]

This comment sums up exactly how I personally feel about this
government and ID Cards.



http://www.silicon.com/research/special ... T=39153229

The forementioned comment was in response to the following:

Name
Karen Challinor

Location
UK

Occupation
Company Director

Comment
I'm quite willing to throw a fiver into the pot to sponsor a real debate in the house about ID cards, one where civil liberties are discussed openly, one where the financial costs are hammered out.

I offer this as money seems to be the only thing the government understands.

I daresay there's quite a few people out there who would also be willing to pay our government to do the one thing they are supposed to be doing i.e. listening to their electorate.

Oh I just remembered I do that anyway don't I, so why isn't the government holding the debate then ?

It wouldn't be trying to sneak the bill through in a midnight session at the end of the year when there's no one around

[Cynthia]

Not much time left to lobby your MP on this one - suggest you move fast - it was a close call last vote but obviously Gavin Strang to date has said he is going to vote with the Government although he has reservations about ID cards - see my posting above for his reasons:
Lobby Gavin Strang MP by email at gillana@parliament.uk, strangg@parliament.uk

from NO2ID NEWSLETTER - Supporter's Newsletter No.30 - 13th October 2005

===============================================

++ IDENTITY CARDS BILL THIRD (LAST IN HOUSE OF COMMONS) READING IMMINENT ++
The Third Reading of the government's ID Card Bill will take place next week, on Tuesday 18th October. There will be a limited debate and further
opportunity for MPs to vote on the Bill before it goes to the Lords. At the
last vote on the bill (Second Reading), the government won by just 31 votes.If all the other parties vote as they did last time, we need to convince just 16 Labour MPs to vote against the bill. NO2ID are busy lobbying and sending briefings to MPs and constituencies but we need your help too.

We've published a guide to lobbying (available at http://www.no2id.net/downloads/index.php) , prepared for NO2ID by a former Labour Party MP's office worker. Please use it to write to your MP over the next few days. Go to http://mps.no2id.net/ to send them a fax - all you need to enter is your postcode.

Carla

[Gemini]

ID CARDS - RENEW YOUR PASSPORT IN MAY

As part of the campaign against ID Cards, NO2ID are calling for people to renew their passports in May. If yours has less than half way to go (say, five years) it is to your own direct advantage to renew your passport before time.
Why? May is the last month you can get a passport and not be automatically entered onto the National Identity Register - worth it in it's own right. also once the technology is in place for the ID Cards themselves you will be charged £95 for a passport and ID Cards - regardless of whether you 'choose' to take an id card. So buy now and save later. Lots more details and info can be found at http://www.renewforfreedom.org/