We've not been shut down. But there's certainly a story here and I hope it's written by the community of Porty - not some suit down in London.Novastar wrote:Seeing as it was probably publicity in certain papers that brought this about in the first place (it's been going for a while and then suddenly all this happens when it goes in the paper?..?) what about using that again.
Local community project shut down by vicious evil conglomerates who want to poison our ears with Britney Spears.
Could also give a shout out to anyone who wanted their music up.
I understand that most music is OK after 25 years if it isn't renewed so anything obscure from the 50s and 60s might be OK (needs checking) and classical stuff is OK (bet Mozart never got royaltys)
Battle Royale - Radio Free Porty vs MCPS/PRS
Michael Jackson was done for that - I think it was on Thriller that he sampled a Canadian orchestra. They sued. He lost.rathbone wrote:Except you will find that the copyright on classical music rests with the orchestra/artist who recorded it and not with the composer - so there's very little free Mozart about.
I thought the copyright thing was extended from 50 to 70 years about ten years ago - has it changed back? I know this because I was in a choir and suddenly music we'd been singing for years became unavailable to us. Oh, but that's sheet music so probably a very different thing. D'oh.Novastar wrote: I understand that most music is OK after 25 years
Ignore me.
All I really need is love, but a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt!
-Lucy Van Pelt (in Peanuts, by Charles M. Schulz)
-Lucy Van Pelt (in Peanuts, by Charles M. Schulz)
Here is the mail I sent the mprs boys:
Sirs
My apologies for any headaches I caused you today - I may have contempt for some of the people you represent, but this is in no way personal and if anything it's a shame that we're arguing about something as nice as music.
I'm pleased to report that as far as I know, all licensed/copyrighted material has been removed from our playlist/stream now.
The current playlist, and any future additions, will be of a similar nature - ie unsigned bands or those who have published their own (original) work and have given us permission (mainly because we know them) to broadcast. Obviously I can't be 100% sure, but I'll do my best to keep everything legal from now until such time as we get a license, or Babylon falls, or something. If you do spot (or perhaps hear) something which shouldn't be on our playlist, I certainly guarantee it will be removed as soon as possible - please contact me in the first instance.
If either of you are in unsigned bands please feel free to submit your tapes or cds to the address on the site. I also encourage you to state your opinions and correct ours on either the porty.org.uk forum or the station's own.
Your up-front fee of 1600 pounds is beyond our budget. Please institute a fair and reasonable pricing system which does not discriminate against small groups like ours, and you'll find us at the front of the queue, happy to pay to be able to play the artists we love.
Dada
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General Tactifer
- Posts: 62
- Joined: 11 Sep 2003, 23:50
- Location: Brunstane Village
Record industry 'protection'
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Last edited by General Tactifer on 28 Oct 2005, 00:08, edited 1 time in total.
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AmericanaOK
- Posts: 86
- Joined: 30 Sep 2005, 13:56
- Location: Lost Highway
- Contact:
Hi all, shame about RFP. However, if any of you want to continue in a legit way check out http://www.last.fm/help/. They seem to have found a way around all the PRS stuff. For a working example try http://www.last.fm/user/AmericanaUK/ 
Now that's Americana! [b][url=http://www.americanaok.com]AmericanaOK[/url][/b] Reporting to both the [b]Euro Americana Chart[/b] and [b]Freeform American Roots Chart[/b]. Podcasts via [b]iTunes[/b].
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AmericanaOK
- Posts: 86
- Joined: 30 Sep 2005, 13:56
- Location: Lost Highway
- Contact:
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying we give up on RFP but LastFM is a model we may be able to learn from. There must be a way for a not-for-profit group to share their tunes over the net. We just need to find it. How do hospital radios operate? Is charatable status the answer? I don't know but someone will.
Now that's Americana! [b][url=http://www.americanaok.com]AmericanaOK[/url][/b] Reporting to both the [b]Euro Americana Chart[/b] and [b]Freeform American Roots Chart[/b]. Podcasts via [b]iTunes[/b].
You don't have to pay if it's a closed loop (like most hospitals). Other than that I don't know.AmericanaOK wrote:Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying we give up on RFP but LastFM is a model we may be able to learn from. There must be a way for a not-for-profit group to share their tunes over the net. We just need to find it. How do hospital radios operate? Is charatable status the answer? I don't know but someone will.
http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/redi ... jectId=114
Non-Commercial Radio Services
Low Powered AM/FM Services:
(i) Without advertising/sponsorship £146 p.a. (plus VAT)
So do we qualify under any of the categories on the mcps/prs "alliance" site and if so, why were the heavy mob sent in to intimidate us and why didn't they offer us this deal at £147??? We can afford that.Dadaist wrote:They have a separate person/department/policy/whip who deals with internet licensing.
The appropriate license for us apparently is a LOEL which is a flat upfront fee of about £400 a quarter.ali wrote:So do we qualify under any of the categories on the mcps/prs "alliance" site and if so, why were the heavy mob sent in to intimidate us and why didn't they offer us this deal at £147??? We can afford that.Dadaist wrote:They have a separate person/department/policy/whip who deals with internet licensing.
I guess they must think there is a difference between a low wattage AM/FM transmitter, and an internet broadcast.
They get really uppity when you confront them with the fact that they are threatening you. They said no way would anyone get their door knocked down, but that - and I quote - "we would make it so that your listeners could not connect to your stream".
Which amounts to a rigmarole of fines, legal action and ultimately - somebody smashing my door in because of art.
Following the link it seems this is taken from the section which applies to Hospital Radio.wangi wrote:http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/redi ... jectId=114Non-Commercial Radio Services
Low Powered AM/FM Services:
(i) Without advertising/sponsorship £146 p.a. (plus VAT)
www.porty.org.uk
It seems to me that we fall in to a new category of radio station that the mcps/prs alliance haven't quite got their heads round yet.
I can't find any category on their site that adequately describes what it is we do. If we had confidence that the courts would take the same view then I would say lets go for it and fight them/make them create a new category for small communitynon/profit radio stations at a reasonable annual rate of say £120. Imagine how much they could rake in for their members.
I would say that but I'm not brave enough....................................
I can't find any category on their site that adequately describes what it is we do. If we had confidence that the courts would take the same view then I would say lets go for it and fight them/make them create a new category for small communitynon/profit radio stations at a reasonable annual rate of say £120. Imagine how much they could rake in for their members.
I would say that but I'm not brave enough....................................
In order to fight them we would probably need more money than the cost of the current license.ali wrote:It seems to me that we fall in to a new category of radio station that the mcps/prs alliance haven't quite got their heads round yet.
I can't find any category on their site that adequately describes what it is we do. If we had confidence that the courts would take the same view then I would say lets go for it and fight them/make them create a new category for small communitynon/profit radio stations at a reasonable annual rate of say £120. Imagine how much they could rake in for their members.
I would say that but I'm not brave enough....................................
They are well aware that it is unfair and that the rules are changing, but are most definitely determined to apply the current rules to us *now* as you have seen from their mails.
I just spoke to the piracy guy (nice chap) who confirmed that charities are not treated differently (he spoke about the Elton/Diana and Live8 events which he was involved with, and also about how peace campaigners don't like their music being played by the military, nor vegetarians by the meat marketing board) and that the internet is licensed differently from "radio" broadcasting.
I am not prepared to be branded a criminal and fined or sent to jail. Nor do I have an expensive lawyer.
It was from the link for non-comercial radio. I posted it simply because Americana asked how hospital radio stations operate - I know it's not an option here, and I guess I should have pointed that out.Marya wrote:Following the link it seems this is taken from the section which applies to Hospital Radio.wangi wrote:http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/redi ... jectId=114Non-Commercial Radio Services
Low Powered AM/FM Services:
(i) Without advertising/sponsorship £146 p.a. (plus VAT)
Obviously an internet "broadcast" can have a much larger audience than a low power FM station. However the amount of streams can be limited too and it is surprising that none of the online licences even acknowledge that. What's the difference between 300 folk listening to hospital radio (limited by location) and 300 folk listing to an online station (limited by technology and bandwidth)?
Could you phone them for me, or even get us an application form?rapunzell wrote:Does our being a Porty community arts project using Porty DJs (and even playing Porty demos) make us eligible for a Scottish Arts Council grant to cover licensing costs? I've seen them give money to much more airy fairyness in the past.
Spot on Wangi. Here's hoping that the 'rule changes' Dadaist was informed about take that on board.wangi wrote: What's the difference between 300 folk listening to hospital radio (limited by location) and 300 folk listing to an online station (limited by technology and bandwidth)?
In the meantime, we could just play Bob's recording of next Wednesday's meeting of the Joppa Poetry Association and apply for that Scottish Arts grant
www.porty.org.uk
I would encourage all of you with questions and queries to phone the prs alliance as they are currently refusing to take part in this debate, even though they are reading all of it and (quite often) quoting me back to myself and making me answer for my utterances - which is quite fun actually!Marya wrote:Spot on Wangi. Here's hoping that the 'rule changes' Dadaist was informed about take that on board.wangi wrote: What's the difference between 300 folk listening to hospital radio (limited by location) and 300 folk listing to an online station (limited by technology and bandwidth)?
In the meantime, we could just play Bob's recording of next Wednesday's meeting of the Joppa Poetry Association and apply for that Scottish Arts grant
They don't want their contact details published, so PM me and I will give you the piracy bloke and the online licensing bloke (both nice blokes)'s names and telephone numbers.
Will try, but in the meantime:Dadaist wrote:Could you phone them for me, or even get us an application form?rapunzell wrote:Does our being a Porty community arts project using Porty DJs (and even playing Porty demos) make us eligible for a Scottish Arts Council grant to cover licensing costs? I've seen them give money to much more airy fairyness in the past.
http://www.scottisharts.org.uk/
http://www.awardsforall.org.uk/scotland/
The SAC don't usually give grants to anything that has already begun, but they do make exceptions. They do, however, insist on equal opportunity involvement in community groups.
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Jackson Priest
- Posts: 493
- Joined: 30 Aug 2005, 16:57
- Location: Marlborough Street
- Contact:
LETTER TO MCPS-PRS-ALLIANCE
Hello
I understand you are nice chaps so hopefully you will read this. Please bear with me because I do tend to ramble at times.
Can you remember the Home Taping Is Killing Music campaign in the 80s? There were all those ads with the little Jolly Roger with a cassette on it (Look – I've cleverly reproduced one on the left). And we were filled with dread that the music industry would crash into oblivion because apparently it was so endemic that the music industry was being starved of its vital income.
Well, I've got a confession to make – I made and I received many tapes in those days, made garishly coloured sleeves, and generally had a good time doing it, even though I was told it was horribly illegal. But I know that people bought some of the albums that the songs on these cassettes were from, and then told other people about them – and so on. And I did the same – for example one cassette which I received from a lovely girl called Helen (I told you I rambled) contained, amongst others, a Nick Drake track, a Tim Buckley track, and a Jonathan Richman track. Over the years I have bought pretty much every release each of these artists has made – on vinyl, CD, CD Special Editions etc etc etc. So, over the years, I - and those old friends of mine - have spent a hell of a lot of money, a portion of which I hope has gone into your client's pockets (or their estates in the case of poor old Nick and Timmy).
That was last century though, and things have moved on somewhat now. Peer-to-peer file sharing is rife, and I understand that you must protect your artists from the inevitable loss of revenue which must ensue. The music industry is worried, because it didn't really think that this interweb thing would catch on and so didn't get in on the act soon enough. Now it's desperately trying to catch up, and set up real alternatives to the illegal file-sharing sites, but is finding it difficult to change people's habits.
Now that brings us to Radio Free Porty (I think we should point out by the way that RFP is not a "non-profit organisation" – it's actually a non-income organisation. A few people have clubbed together and come up with enough cash to pay for the streaming - and that's it! There is no income!). Basically, what you have here is a couple of music enthusiasts who are sharing their love of music, and giving other people the opportunity to hear music that they might not otherwise hear. RFP is not offering files for download, it is simply marketing your members' product. And if one person buys, to use your example, a Whiskytown album, because they have heard it on AmericanaOK's show, then that's one more album than they would have sold.
And that's just like in the 80s when home taping was supposedly killing music. But it didn't, did it? Music is alive and it is kicking, and that's because of people like us.
So what you now need to do is go away and review your fees, and to change them so that people like us can continue to disseminate this beautiful thing called music; because ultimately your policies are doing a disservice to your members.
Thanks for reading – I'll give you a call this afternoon to discuss.
Jackson Priest.
PS. Have you heard of the Arctic Monkeys? You should have done by now, as they're going to be huge, or so we are told. Here's an article from yesterday's Guardian which talks about how they've already built up a massive fanbase – and how have they done it? By streaming tracks from their website, and letting people hear them and even share them in some cases. They're going to ‘shift a lot of units' because of this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 88,00.html
Hello
I understand you are nice chaps so hopefully you will read this. Please bear with me because I do tend to ramble at times.
Can you remember the Home Taping Is Killing Music campaign in the 80s? There were all those ads with the little Jolly Roger with a cassette on it (Look – I've cleverly reproduced one on the left). And we were filled with dread that the music industry would crash into oblivion because apparently it was so endemic that the music industry was being starved of its vital income.
Well, I've got a confession to make – I made and I received many tapes in those days, made garishly coloured sleeves, and generally had a good time doing it, even though I was told it was horribly illegal. But I know that people bought some of the albums that the songs on these cassettes were from, and then told other people about them – and so on. And I did the same – for example one cassette which I received from a lovely girl called Helen (I told you I rambled) contained, amongst others, a Nick Drake track, a Tim Buckley track, and a Jonathan Richman track. Over the years I have bought pretty much every release each of these artists has made – on vinyl, CD, CD Special Editions etc etc etc. So, over the years, I - and those old friends of mine - have spent a hell of a lot of money, a portion of which I hope has gone into your client's pockets (or their estates in the case of poor old Nick and Timmy).
That was last century though, and things have moved on somewhat now. Peer-to-peer file sharing is rife, and I understand that you must protect your artists from the inevitable loss of revenue which must ensue. The music industry is worried, because it didn't really think that this interweb thing would catch on and so didn't get in on the act soon enough. Now it's desperately trying to catch up, and set up real alternatives to the illegal file-sharing sites, but is finding it difficult to change people's habits.
Now that brings us to Radio Free Porty (I think we should point out by the way that RFP is not a "non-profit organisation" – it's actually a non-income organisation. A few people have clubbed together and come up with enough cash to pay for the streaming - and that's it! There is no income!). Basically, what you have here is a couple of music enthusiasts who are sharing their love of music, and giving other people the opportunity to hear music that they might not otherwise hear. RFP is not offering files for download, it is simply marketing your members' product. And if one person buys, to use your example, a Whiskytown album, because they have heard it on AmericanaOK's show, then that's one more album than they would have sold.
And that's just like in the 80s when home taping was supposedly killing music. But it didn't, did it? Music is alive and it is kicking, and that's because of people like us.
So what you now need to do is go away and review your fees, and to change them so that people like us can continue to disseminate this beautiful thing called music; because ultimately your policies are doing a disservice to your members.
Thanks for reading – I'll give you a call this afternoon to discuss.
Jackson Priest.
PS. Have you heard of the Arctic Monkeys? You should have done by now, as they're going to be huge, or so we are told. Here's an article from yesterday's Guardian which talks about how they've already built up a massive fanbase – and how have they done it? By streaming tracks from their website, and letting people hear them and even share them in some cases. They're going to ‘shift a lot of units' because of this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 88,00.html
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AmericanaOK
- Posts: 86
- Joined: 30 Sep 2005, 13:56
- Location: Lost Highway
- Contact:
This link shows the Council's criteria and conditions for giving grants http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/CEC/Corpora ... er_5k.htmlrapunzell wrote:The City Council also give small grants for 'inclusive' community arts projects so I've left a message with their arts funding dept.
And this one leads to Grants - Who to Contact http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/CEC/Corpora ... ntact.html
Seems like it would be a full time job wading through the red tape. But, if someone had the time it could lead to some funding. Would be nice to get some Council Tax back
Now that's Americana! [b][url=http://www.americanaok.com]AmericanaOK[/url][/b] Reporting to both the [b]Euro Americana Chart[/b] and [b]Freeform American Roots Chart[/b]. Podcasts via [b]iTunes[/b].
Hear Hear
I'm a bit young for home taping but (with a quick count up) 10 of the last 12 albums I've bought have been because of mates MP3's.
If a song's great - go and buy the album.
If a song's ^&*) get rid of the MP3.
It doesn't mean I spend less on music - it means I spend it on better music.
But I suppose certain people don't see it that way. It's not about music it's about mu$ic.
I'm a bit young for home taping but (with a quick count up) 10 of the last 12 albums I've bought have been because of mates MP3's.
If a song's great - go and buy the album.
If a song's ^&*) get rid of the MP3.
It doesn't mean I spend less on music - it means I spend it on better music.
But I suppose certain people don't see it that way. It's not about music it's about mu$ic.
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Pal of Porty
- Posts: 2136
- Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 13:41
- Location: Old Folks Home
- Contact:
