Defend Democracy - last chance

[Cynthia]

Defend the right to peaceful protest! Sign the Petition - Signatures: 2,171
Goal: 5,000
"We, the undersigned, strongly object to the draconian measures imposed on four MSPs by the Parliament Standards Committee. We therefore urge you, with immediate priority, to review and reverse this decision."

Your last chance to sign this petition to object to the silencing of 4 MSPs (SSP) who were supporting the right to march and demonstrate in Auchterarder, near to the Gleneagles Hotel (heavily guarded by 10,000 police, including riot police and chinook helicopters) where the G8 leaders of the richest countries in the world were meeting.....For their peaceful and short protest in the Scottish Parliament the 4 MSPs have been banned from Parliament for a month, not only losing their salaries (of which they only take half) but also those of their staff, all of whom have mortgages and bills to pay, but also fined £30,000....
this is your chance to sign the petition - supposed to finish today but you might be able to do this after 30th August - view the Petition anyway - over 2,000 messages of support from all over the world so far..
Please act swiftly. It only takes a couple of minutes - You access the petition on http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeacti ... 1121800103

What better use can there be for the Scottish Parliament than to make a peaceful demonstration of the concerns of many people in Scotland and the UK (and internationally) as demonstrated in the Make Poverty History March - to relieve poverty, hunger, lack of medicines eg to counter HIV/Aids etc - and how true that the G8 has so far made so little difference
as many suspected would be the case.

[Porty]

When you say: "Salaries- which they take only half". Do you mean that the MSP's take 50p in the £1 from the public purse or that they take £1 in the £1 and then give 50% to their parties?

Democracy in the UK doesn't need defending it is working just fine and is not under threat.

[Cynthia]

Thanks Porty for bringing my topic up the list from obscurity so more people can get the info - I knew I could rely on you! Carla

[Gemini]

Thanks Porty for bringing my topic up the list from obscurity so more people can get the info - I knew I could rely on you! Carla

[Dadaist]

Thanks Porty for bringing my topic up the list from obscurity so more people can get the info - I knew I could rely on you! Carla

Gaun yersel. Good comeback.

[Porty]

Thanks Porty for bringing my topic up the list from obscurity so more people can get the info - I knew I could rely on you! Carla

My pleasure, pity you did not reward me with an answer to the salary question but hey I guess everyone knows the answer.

Way to go on the petition results!!! 2000 messages of support from all around the World!!! That means there is less than 2000 from Scotland. Does that qualify as a peaceful protest?

I'm not joking about democracy being alive and well, especially here in Scotland, look at the SSP: At the last parliamentary election I think they atttracted about 8000 votes. (this will soon be remembered as the heydays of the SSP) What did they get in exchange? 6 full time full salaried MSP's. It is outstanding and I don't not know of anywhere else in the World where that would happen. However, instead of acknowledging and praising the democratic process that awarded such representation, what do the SSP do.? Firstly, bitc h about the process and secondly they make sure that their party has by far and away the worst attendance record at parlaimentary sessions. With not one SSP MSP putting in even an average attendance, 5 of the 6 were in the lowest 20%.

The only good news is that the SSP "heydays" are well and truly behind us.

[Porty]

Thanks Porty for bringing my topic up the list from obscurity so more people can get the info - I knew I could rely on you! Carla

Gaun yersel. Good comeback.

Yep, you are definetly in the "don't answer any questions camp".

[Dadaist]

...just don't mention ze war!!!!

[Dadaist]

I know what we should do - rebrand. New SSP!!!

Anyways, in terms of hating Blair we have been done out of a job by Jack McConnell. Wowsers, talk about issues!

[Cynthia]

Protest
Tuesday 6th SeptemberOutside Scottish Parliament 8.30am
Show your support for the suspended MSPs

Rally
Defend our Civil LibertiesTuesday 6th September
St George's West Church, Shandwick Place
7.00pm
Colin Fox MSP
Campbell Martin MSP
Suhayl Saadi - Author
Gate Gourmet striker
Jean Charles de Menezes family campaign

All who are concerned about this attack on MSP's right to peaceful protest in the Scottish Parliament please come to support.

Carla

[Porty]

I know what we should do - rebrand. New SSP!!!

Can't see it working. Many supporters that you did have have watched the idleness and mendacity unfold. Your representatives have not been good custodians of their jobs as MSP's. The SSP will be lucky to fool so many again. George Galloway should provide the final nail.

[Porty]

Colin Fox MSP
Campbell Martin MSP
Suhayl Saadi - Author
Gate Gourmet striker
Jean Charles de Menezes family campaign

What no representatives of the families of the dead from 7/7?

I thought the Fringe was finished.

[Cynthia]

Many supporters that you did have have watched the idleness and mendacity unfold. Your representatives have not been good custodians of their jobs

Porty
.....funny I thought you were talking about our war monger PM there for a minute - silly me!

[Porty]

Many supporters that you did have have watched the idleness and mendacity unfold. Your representatives have not been good custodians of their jobs

Porty
.....funny I thought you were talking about our war monger PM there for a minute - silly me!

Nah, he has his own threads.

[Dadaist]

I know what we should do - rebrand. New SSP!!!

Can't see it working. Many supporters that you did have have watched the idleness and mendacity unfold. Your representatives have not been good custodians of their jobs as MSP's. The SSP will be lucky to fool so many again. George Galloway should provide the final nail.

Eh? I thought George was a Respect MP. Is he coming back to Glasgow?

[Dadaist]

What no representatives of the families of the dead from 7/7?

It takes time, I guess. It's an odd phenomenon that we're supposed to weigh the opinions of those who have lost loved ones in any conflict based only on the tragedy of their loss, as a parent who has lost a soldier child can, for example swing a number of ways. They could stay silent and mourn, campaign for the death not to be in vain, or come out against the generals who stayed safe while their son (usually) took the flak.

I guess in a propaganda war, both sides will use the tools they have at their disposal if it furthers their cause, so in this instance the authoritarian and libertarian camps will not hesitate to give platforms, respectively, to casualties or the bereaved who have come to sympathetic conclusions.

There's a Jewish playwright and author called David Mamet who has a problem with Steven Spielberg, in that he doesn't think that Schindler's List should have been made at all, because the Talmud says that the only correct way to act in the presence of the dead is to be silent. I disagree, but I understand his point.

The Fringe is over, but political theatre goes on.

[Porty]

Eh? I thought George was a Respect MP. Is he coming back to Glasgow?

Yes, he has fired the first shots. He has espoused that the SSP is terminal decline, no argument there, and that in the wake of the demise he is considering bringing Respect to fight elections in Scotland.

[Dadaist]

Eh? I thought George was a Respect MP. Is he coming back to Glasgow?

Yes, he has fired the first shots. He has espoused that the SSP is terminal decline, no argument there, and that in the wake of the demise he is considering bringing Respect to fight elections in Scotland.

Wowsers.

[Porty]

[The Fringe is over, but political theatre goes on.

Ah yes but people go to see most Fringe shows.

[Dadaist]

[The Fringe is over, but political theatre goes on.

Ah yes but people go to see most Fringe shows.

Nah, if I'd turned the camera round at the Benn gig you would have seen the peeps in the lecture theatre. I take your point though, it's not exactly stadium capacity at any of these things. Sometimes though, just sometimes, there are numbers at things - and you wonder where on earth they all came from.

Another "funny" is that over the years it seems to be a completely different set of people who pitch up to things - big things like demos I mean - and you can always tell who is on their first demo.

I guess it's about as "democratic" as the clammy voice of the silent majority.

[Porty]

I thought you must have heard the story. However, it may just be the start of the Sheridan re-election campaign.


Galloway plan to supplant sinking Scottish Socialists
By Angus Macleod, Scottish Political Editor

GEORGE GALLOWAY indicated yesterday that his Respect Party could contest future elections in Scotland if the fortunes of the Scottish Socialists continue to decline after their leadership change.

Until now Mr Galloway has concentrated his party's efforts south of the border and particularly in London, tacitly accepting that there is no room for two hard-left parties in Scotland.

But since the charismatic Tommy Sheridan decided to stand down as leader of the Scottish Socialists amid well-founded reports that he had to bow to internal party critics, the SSP, which won six seats at the Holyrood election in 2003, has seen its fortunes falter.

Mr Galloway, the MP for Bethnal Green and Bow, was speaking at the Edinburgh International Book Festival yesterday. He said that the SSP had made a terrible blunder by replacing Mr Sheridan last November in the wake of newspaper allegations that are now the subject of a defamation action. Mr Sheridan said that he was standing down to spend more time with his family.

Mr Galloway, who set up Respect after being expelled from Labour in 2003, said that he had avoided Scotland owing to the success of the Socialists, even though he opposed their pro-independence stance.

He expressed surprise that SSP members had forced Mr Sheridan to quit after the newspaper stories and added: "I cannot understand why they did that. I hope he comes back. If he doesn't come back, I think the SSP may well sink without trace at the next election. I hope that doesn't happen but if it happens, then Respect will have to look again at its decision not to organise in Scotland."

He also said that he agreed with Peter Mullan, the actor, film-maker and SSP supporter, who last week criticised the treatment of Mr Sheridan and the antics of SSP MSPs who were suspended from the Scottish Parliament for a month.

At last May's general election the SSP did not win a seat and saw their share of the vote dip from more than 3 per cent to less than 2 per cent.

Mr Galloway said that Mr Sheridan, who was replaced as leader by Colin Fox in February, was "the most outstanding figure in the SSP by a country mile".

"Ever since they got rid of him they've been sinking and if they're not careful they'll sink without trace. We would call on people to support them in the 2007 Scottish election but if they destroy the Left position in Scotland, then obviously we would have to think again," he said.

Mr Sheridan adopted a low profile after his resignation but in recent weeks he has made several media appearances, prompting speculation that he may be ready to attempt a comeback to the leadership of the party which he founded. The SSP refused to comment last night.

Mr Galloway also revealed in Edinburgh that he would meet Fidel Castro by the end of the year to work on a book about the Cuban President's life.

[Dadaist]

I hadn't heard it - thanks P.

[Cynthia]

All Parties have their political tensions, .... I for one support Colin Fox as I supported Tommy - and think they are both really good MSPs as well as leaders of the SSP. My view on the votes at the Westminster election was that people voted tactically to try to get rid of Labour - often voting Lib Dem - I don't have time to check out figures but I was told the other day that this resulted in Nigel Griffiths 's vote going down a lot....

However, much more important is what is happening in the UK under Tony Blair at present - the suspension of the SSP MSPs can be seen as a small factor in the much bigger picture of clamping down on civil liberties generally.....those who were at any of the demonstrations, apart from the Make Poverty History march (which was heavily policed but also heavily controlled by the organisers in quite an over the top way eg funelling marchers through a very small gap so as to make people march in a long thin line and take much longer to march or even set off), will have been as shocked as I was at the heavy handed policing. Just as one example, 30 buses of demonstrators were stopped by roadblocks from entering Auchterarder to the legal and peaceful demonstration outside the G8. It took the intervention of a lawyer and hours of arguing, including misleading press statements by the Police, to let us continue on our way.

Not to mention the introduction of a Shoot to Kill policy by the Police across the UK without it being voted on in any Parliament; the killing by the Police of an innocent tube-traveller; detention without trial in Guantanamo Bay has come to Britain at Belmarsh; stop and search increased - an example Carolyn Leckie MSP was arrested for refusing to allow her small handbag to be searched for weapons at an entirely peaceful demonstration outside Dungavel Detention Centre;

The bombings and killing of innocent people on London tubes and buses was horrendous - and entirely wrong - but also can be seen to be a political consequence of Blair and Bush's illegal invasion/attack/occupation of Iraq, and killing of 100,000 Iraqis for no apparent gain.......now Bush is talking up a war/attack on Iran - Tony Benn raised the spectre of this including bombing of nuclear installations there - a horrendous prospect - is Tony Blair going to go along with that too????

In the light of all this, is speculation about the internal politics of the SSP or any Party that important? No - but the suspension of MSPs or MPs is important if we believe in the democratic right to be represented ....

or as one person who signed the Petition to oppose the suspension of the SSP MSPs put it: "It's not very encouraging for a relatively new parliament to start banning irt's own elected members."

Sign the Petition at : (I knew I'd remember the topic in the end!)..its not too late
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeacti ... 1121800103

Carla

[Porty]

Carla not a bad response, you are obviously passionate about your party and I respect that. You will not be surprised that I would like to challenge you on some of the points that you make and hopefully elicit a reasoned and direct response.

.... I for one support Colin Fox as I supported Tommy - and think they are both really good MSPs

How do you relate being "really good MSP's" to these guy's attendance at Parliament? There are only 5 people with a worse attendance than Tommy and Colin, who is your best performer attends way less than average. How can they be good MSP's if their attendance is so poor?

- I don't have time to check out figures ....

Sadly this is a trait that runs through the very core of your Party. You cannot manage yor own accounts. Most times when Sociaists are asked to engage on a factual basis, which usually involves numbers, you have to back down, as you have not done those numbers. Do you believe your party should look more at numbers? Do you get the message that your petition has only achieved 40% of its self-given goal?

or as one person who signed the Petition to oppose the suspension of the SSP MSPs put it: "It's not very encouraging for a relatively new parliament to start banning irt's own elected members."

Another way of looking at the situation would be that it is very encouraging that a new parliament has behavioural rules and is prepared to stick by them. Agreed?

THe problem Socialists have these days is that socialism has lost all credibility. There are no real issues for you to fight over. Even yuor industrial disputes are confined to the airplane meals industry. You have lost all of the really important battles, you lost them decades ago

You try to manufacture the UK as a police state and expect us to get behind your representatives who basically don't turn up for work and on the rare occassions when they do, cant behave themselves. It is not clever and it has no future.

[Dadaist]

There are no real issues for you to fight over.

Incorrect. I'm not going to ague for Carla, but to say that us dropping TNT on other people's kids isn't a real issue is weird.

You know as well as I do that I could write you a long list of "issues", local, national and global which are real at least for the people experiencing them.

It's fine that you don't like socialism or socialists, it would be boring without you round here. But there is a much greater feeling, here and elsewhere, (that the SSP has failed to really key into) that encompasses most of the "issues" which I suspect you are informed about, but for whatever reason see fit instead to criticize the finances of those who criticize them without offering any alternative of your own - mainly because you don't have to as things are good enough for you as they are.

Castigating those who are motivated enough to spend their one life on this planet fighting a perception of injustice is fine, I expect as much and you are doing your task well. There have always been people who stay silent during periods when history is staring you in the face, those who choose to actually say something and those who knee-jerk a response from the sidelines.

But to deny that there are any issues is to deny history. Go right ahead and kick the SSP as much as you like - if it gives you pleasure to do so then I encourage you to do it, as it causes no harm.

[Cynthia]

Whether or not SSP MSPs turn up a lot or a little to debates in the Scottish Parliament is irrelevant to me and I really can't be bothered to go through all Porty's allegations - this thread is supposed to be about whether or not banning MSPs for a peaceful protest and the extent of the ban and the fine are proportionate to a short peaceful protest in Parliament -
however I would like to add:
- Socialism is not going to be voted in - and even if it was, the capitalist system would continue - big business runs this country until we get rid of the whole economic system of capitalism, which benefits the rich 1-2% at the expense of the rest of us, creating great poverty and inequality, and replace it with something fairer
- The SSP MSPs quite rightly, work hard to represent their Constituents outwith Parliamentary proceedings - only having one MSP for the whole of Lothians for instance must mean surgeries being held across a wide area and taking up issues for people scattered across the City of Edinburgh, and the lothians
- Parliamentary Bills are coming forward from the SSP MSPs on the following issues in the next year:
- Scottish Service Tax (proposal to replace the hated Council Tax with a fairer tax, taxing the rich proportionately to their wealth and ensuring the vast majority of the rest of us are better off and also raising more revenue for public services)
- Bill to scrap Prescription Charges - at an all time high of around £7 each now, - this would also mean the anomaly of people with one particular illness getting free prescriptions whilst people with a different illness not getting free prescriptions would be overcome - Prescriptions would be free to all - ending means testing in one aspect of the NHS
- The Free School Meals Bill consultation on this was launched in the last few weeks - I presume this is on the Scottish Parliament website if you want to contribute your opinions

But for me the most important aspect of having MSPs from the SSP is that they are committed to Campaigns outwith the Scottish Parliament and not just to turning up, sitting through debates and going away again. They use their time, and are prepared to be arrested, fined or go to jail for a principle if necessary, to support campaigns and protests such as the protests against nuclear weapons at Faslane; support for the Nursery Nurses dispute, and a whole range of other industrial disputes eg Lothian Bus Drivers (and what is wrong with supporting the Gate Gourmet workers who were sacked so unjustly?); supporting demonstrations against the war and future wars, for an alternative to the G8, for the closure of Dungavel Detention Centre (prison) where asylum seekers and their children are locked up etc etc etc

I don't want this column to be just a Party Political argument - the point of this thread was supposed to be Democracy and that the punishment, in my opinion, given to the MSPs who were suspended for a whole month, banned from any part of the Scottish Parliament building so they could not even answer mail from Constituents, or emails, and fined £30,000 is in my opinion, completely undemocratic.

The Petition is one way of showing this - albeit it has not been publicised very widely - so to return to topic please sign, if you haven't already, or email it to your friends who might sign it! If you are interested, following the link anyway to see comments and support from around the world...click the refresh button after you log on - as it seems to show an old page otherwise - to see up to date postings

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeacti ... 1121800103


Carla

[Porty]

Whether or not SSP MSPs turn up a lot or a little to debates in the Scottish Parliament is irrelevant to me

The prosecution is sorely tempted to rest its case on that statement from the defence

and I really can't be bothered to go through all Porty's allegations -

Facts, not allegations; your MSP's attendance is abysmal, your petition has failed its goal and your party's is either financially bankrupt or near financially bankrupt.

But for me the most important aspect of having MSPs from the SSP is that they are committed to Campaigns outwith the Scottish Parliament and not just to turning up, sitting through debates and going away again. They use their time, and are prepared to be arrested, fined or go to jail for a principle if necessary,

Just like criminals. You cannot run a society where one group is exempt from the rules of law.

I don't want this column to be just a Party Political argument - the point of this thread was supposed to be Democracy and that the punishment, in my opinion, given to the MSPs who were suspended for a whole month, banned from any part of the Scottish Parliament building so they could not even answer mail from Constituents, or emails, and fined £30,000 is in my opinion, completely undemocratic.

You are entitled to your opinion, however, would you care to explain why the fine/punishment is undemocratic?

[Dadaist]

Again not to detract from Carla but in my opinion if you do the crime you do the time. That's why Rosie Kane turned herself in at the cop shop cos there was no way she was going to pay her WMD fine.

It would be good if, by the same token, Blair would pitch up at Guantanamo and turn himself in as an illegal combatant.

You cannot run a society where one group is exempt from the rules of law.

I agree with this entirely Porty. And you know as well as I which class invariably gets away with it all the time. That's why I can't understand why you don't dedicate at least as many column inches to Bu$h and his ilk as you do to picking on the socialists. And that's *if* you did it equally word by word.

Imagine if you had to devote a proportionate amount of words as dollars to international financial scandal as you have done to the finances of the SSP.

Imagine that.

[Porty]

A

That's why I can't understand why you don't dedicate at least as many column inches to Bu$h and his ilk as you do to picking on the socialists. And that's *if* you did it equally word by word.

What would be the point here on POL? There is no one to represent the defence.

W or his supporters don't come on here and ask us o sign petitions in support of their unruly representatives, do they?

[Dadaist]

W or his supporters don't come on here and ask us o sign petitions in support of their unruly representatives, do they?

They don't have to. And if they needed support, they would only have to phone Tony.


(edit : fixed quotes)

[Porty]

Tony et al have been strangely silent on the New Orleans debaucle, don't you think?

[Cynthia]

Check Vote No 2349 for a non-intellectual message (def would not get through the p filter) to Jack McC re ban on SSP MSPs - and can anyone translate Vote no 2346? (spanish I think)
its worth reading the messages for around the globe comment on the banning of the MSPs - and besides which this gets this up the top of POL again!
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeacti ... 1121800103
(you may have to use the refresh button to get the latest votes/messages)
- ok Porty I know its a small vote but impressive in its international tendency! (and besides which its hardly been publicised despite being on POL!)
Carla