"The Big Announcement" - discussion

[Dadaist]

Bob has chosen to lock his big announcement, so here's an open thread to discuss it.

Lawrence Marshall said the following in the press :

some elements, such as the discussion forums, are little more than gossip and tittle-tattle

For giving us such a bad name, I would like to propose that Lawrence Marshall be replaced in the POL management committee as soon as his post can be filled.

I would also like to propose that, with 412 users, the forum deserves representation on the management committee. If Merkel gets to be German chancellor with that many votes, it's only democratic.

[Novastar]

I'm still trying to work out the links between real names and handles.

Beside's Bob Jefferson I don't have a clue who's who.

[Porty]

Overall I am pleased that there is some supportive structure in place.

However, there is no representation from portobello business community on either the management team or the sub-comittee. Yet the business community is responsible for 100% of site revenuie and ought to have a voice. I would like to see such representation.

[Dadaist]

Names explained for Novastar :

The following is a joint statement by the Portobello Online management team:

OWNERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT OF THE WEBSITE

The domain name of Portobello Online is registered in the name of Bob Jefferson and is a non-profit making, community website produced by local unpaid volunteers.

From the outset, Bob chose to make himself answerable to Portobello Community Council as he believed that this was the right thing to do. A sub-committee was appointed to oversee the development of the website. The membership of this group comprises; Lawrence Marshall, Maureen Child, John Stewart (PAS Chair), Nick Stroud (PCC Secretary), Brenda Molony (Portobello Reporter) and Bob Jefferson.

Although, until now, the sub-committee has never felt the need to meet, progress on the website has been discussed regularly both at CC meetings and informally. The impression given has always been that members were pleased with the way Portobello Online was being managed. It has been agreed that the sub-committee will now meet at least twice a year and their views sought on any matter that is likely to be contentious. The sub-committee can, if it desires, co-opt non-CC members.

The website, including the forum, will now be jointly managed by a team of three: Bob Jefferson, Paula Williams and Maria Devoy.

Paula == "bellybabe", Maria == "Marya"

The management team is responsible for all aspects of Portobello Online, including the appointment of forum moderators. The team can also appoint additional website managers, subject to the approval of the PCC sub-committee.

Bob, Maria, Paula and Matthew have moderator status on the forum.

Matthew = "Dadaist"

Moderators are responsible for the creation and enforcement of posting guidelines.

On the technical side, Lee is forum administrator, while Paul has overall responsibility for the website.

Lee == "wangi", Paul == "xxxx" (i think)

Jane, Bobby and Gavin contribute as well and we are indebted to all of these people for their continued support.

dunno who they are either.

FINANCE

All monies raised by Portobello Online are held by Portobello Community Council and itemised separately. The financial dealings of Community Councils are, of course, open to public scrutiny.

It was made quite clear to all businesses participating in the Local Business Directory (as well as to our sponsors) that all the money raised would be used exclusively for the promotion of Portobello Online. The website managers have no authority, nor intention, to use the money for any other purpose.

In order to avoid putting the website managers in a position where they may be open to criticism, it is intended to ask sub-committee members for approval in advance for all purchases over £50. Discussion of the best ways of promoting and improving the website will continue with all interested parties, taking into account the opinion of forum members and the wider community.


SPONSORSHIP OF THE WEBSITE

As a small number of forum members objected to our sponsorship plans, the PCC sub-committee members were canvassed on the subject. They were asked 2 questions.

1. Is it appropriate for Portobello Online to seek corporate sponsorship?
2. Is RBS a suitable sponsor?

The verdict was unanimous – YES to both questions.

The matter was raised again at a full CC meeting on Monday 26 September (in the absence of Bob Jefferson). The minutes will show that there was again unanimous approval from the full council.

We are pleased, therefore, to announce that the Portobello branch of Royal Bank of Scotland

Royal Bank of Scotland == The Antichrist

has decided to sponsor Portobello Online for the next 12 months. We would like to thank Brian McCrow

Brian McCrow == Brian McCrow.

for making this happen and Mike Todd, the branch manager for his support.

We continue to seek sponsorship from other local businesses.

THANKS

We would like to thank everyone, past and present, who has contributed to our thriving community website. It's a great honour to be short-listed for the Calor Gas Community Website of the Year and, with your support, we intend to build upon that success in the years to come.

[wangi]

I'm still trying to work out the links between real names and handles.

Beside's Bob Jefferson I don't have a clue who's who.

Dada's done a bit of annotation but with regards to the committee that's because (with the exception of Laurence Marshall) you'll not see them on the forum.

How would somebody go about becoming a member of this sub-commitee? As it stands It's somewhat unrepresentative of the site I would say. Yes I know POL != the forum - but it is a big part of it.

Fast forward 1 year and imagine we're back to talking about taking the banks cash - how will the decision be made? By the same sub-committee? If so I think you'll still be lacking in happy-campers here!

[xxxx]

I would also like to propose that, with 412 users, the forum deserves representation on the management committee.

While I'm all for making things as cumbersome as possible, how would this work?
The average poll seems to get about 20 votes so around 390 members do not seem to have any strong opinions about the way things are run. A representative of the forum would then, if elected unanimously by the normal number of voters, have a mandate from 5% of the members.
How would they canvas opinion from the rest? How do you know what the forum consensus is on any given subject?

[Dadaist]

I would also like to propose that, with 412 users, the forum deserves representation on the management committee.

While I'm all for making things as cumbersome as possible, how would this work?
The average poll seems to get about 20 votes so around 390 members do not seem to have any strong opinions about the way things are run. A representative of the forum would then, if elected unanimously by the normal number of voters, have a mandate from 5% of the members.
How would they canvas opinion from the rest? How do you know what the forum consensus is on any given subject?

They would canvass opinion by acting as a bridge between proposals made to/on the POL management committe and the forum.

5% of the forum is more of a mandate than Larry Marshall has, or I would assume has, after tagging the whole lot of us as gossipers and tittler-tattlers.

There's no such thing as forum consensus. But as the Bonoful vote shows, there is such a thing as a majority vote.

[ali]

I would also like to propose that, with 412 users, the forum deserves representation on the management committee.

While I'm all for making things as cumbersome as possible, how would this work?
The average poll seems to get about 20 votes so around 390 members do not seem to have any strong opinions about the way things are run. A representative of the forum would then, if elected unanimously by the normal number of voters, have a mandate from 5% of the members.
How would they canvas opinion from the rest? How do you know what the forum consensus is on any given subject?

Since parliamentary democracy is run on exactly the same basis then what's the problem - or do you propose making voting compulsory??

I also agree that it is a disgrace that Lawrence Marshall is on this committee and he should be emptied at the first opportunity.

[dccairns]

Good to see some things clarified by this announcement.

I would support the proposal that there is one forum member and one member of the business community on the sub-committee. I do not see the need for two councillors on this. I also think the sub-committee should meet more often than twice a year. What about quarterly or monthly?

It would also be good to see annual accounts published so we all know where the money is coming from and where it is going to.

It seems that the money from RBS is not going back but do we have to have their logo on the Home Page? Could it not be on another page, entitled (as suggested by Wangi a while ago), "About POL" or some such that you click on from the Home Page?

Or is everything set in stone?

[Porty]

I wonder why the original "The Big Announcement" thread was locked? Seems a bit of a throwback to the pre-managment committee days.

[Hawkeye]

I'm pleased that the issue of who owns and controls the POL site has been clarified and that Bob can now feel less exposed to criticism than he has done before. I note that the PCC sub-committee had previously not felt the need to meet but now that the site has grown and is generating an income, some committee control is more relevant.

Whether you agree with the RBoS sponsorship or not, at least it is clear that the decision is under community control and that the logo will only show for twelve months from the date of its appearance (unless renegotiated and agreed). I think that the healthy debate stimulated by this issue has strengthened POL by bringing out the openness of its management.

Speaking of healthy debate, I'm glad that members can feel free to air their comments about our two elected members of CEC even though they are on the sub-committee!
Also, I'd like to remind everyone of the Public Meeting tomorrow night in the Town Hall at 7:00. Cast off your cloak of virtuality and come and take part in, or just listen to, the debate on future developments in Portobello and Joppa.

[xxxx]

Good to see some things clarified by this announcement.

Yes having moved from an ad hoc voluntary arrangement we should now endeavour to make the structure as complicated as possible

I would support the proposal that there is one forum member and one member of the business community on the sub-committee. I do not see the need for two councillors on this. I also think the sub-committee should meet more often than twice a year. What about quarterly or monthly?

What on earth will they have to talk about? How much controversy can one little community site generate? The business community can express themselves by not paying, they each have to be contacted to renew their contribution, they can make their feelings,if any, known then. Free markets and self determination backing each other up all the way, to quote Edgar Derby.

It would also be good to see annual accounts published so we all know where the money is coming from and where it is going to.

I don't think there's any problem with this, just get in touch with the community council

It seems that the money from RBS is not going back but do we have to have their logo on the Home Page? Could it not be on another page, entitled (as suggested by Wangi a while ago), "About POL" or some such that you click on from the Home Page?

Or is everything set in stone?

I don't think anythings set in stone.

Since parliamentary democracy is run on exactly the same basis then what's the problem - or do you propose making voting compulsory??

I also agree that it is a disgrace that Lawrence Marshall is on this committee and he should be emptied at the first opportunity.

A parliamentary democracy is not always representative, and one with 5% voting would suggest either an extremely dispirited or an extremely content electorate. What do we have here?

The shrill reponse to Councillor Marshall suggests some members are as thin skinned as he is . He's elected by our community to handle things of far greater importance and is more available to hear the grievances of members through his surgeries than most other candidates, I would imagine.

[Novastar]

Cheers Dadaist

makes things a bit clearer for the plebs like me...

With an avatar like that I always thought bellybabe was Egyptian or something

[Sandra]

With an avatar like that I always thought bellybabe was Egyptian or something

Bellybabe is very fond of "bellydancing". She actually features in a picture on a previous thread, can't remember which one though..

[dccairns]

xxxx, do not misrepresent me. I have never argued for complication, only clarity and transparency about issues such as decision-making powers etc.

You ask: "How much controversy can one little community site generate?"

Well, quite a lot, judging by the debate there has been on the web site over RBS sponsorship and so on. That's why the sub-committee needs to meet more often than twice a year.

So the business community can express itself only by not paying - a weird view of democracy. How about, by paying, they have a right to some representation on the sub-committee? As Porty says, they are the major contributors to the coffers.

You say "I don't think anything's set in stone" but it seems to me that there is a hierarchy of users on the web site, i.e. those who have "done something" for the web site and those who merely contribute their ideas and opinions on the forum. I wonder how many of the latter group's views are going to be taken into account on the running of the site. They have already been told that they have no right to criticise or question any decisions.

[ali]

Good to see some things clarified by this announcement.

Yes having moved from an ad hoc voluntary arrangement we should now endeavour to make the structure as complicated as possible

I would support the proposal that there is one forum member and one member of the business community on the sub-committee. I do not see the need for two councillors on this. I also think the sub-committee should meet more often than twice a year. What about quarterly or monthly?

What on earth will they have to talk about? How much controversy can one little community site generate? The business community can express themselves by not paying, they each have to be contacted to renew their contribution, they can make their feelings,if any, known then. Free markets and self determination backing each other up all the way, to quote Edgar Derby.

It would also be good to see annual accounts published so we all know where the money is coming from and where it is going to.

I don't think there's any problem with this, just get in touch with the community council

It seems that the money from RBS is not going back but do we have to have their logo on the Home Page? Could it not be on another page, entitled (as suggested by Wangi a while ago), "About POL" or some such that you click on from the Home Page?

Or is everything set in stone?

I don't think anythings set in stone.

Since parliamentary democracy is run on exactly the same basis then what's the problem - or do you propose making voting compulsory??

I also agree that it is a disgrace that Lawrence Marshall is on this committee and he should be emptied at the first opportunity.

A parliamentary democracy is not always representative, and one with 5% voting would suggest either an extremely dispirited or an extremely content electorate. What do we have here?

The shrill reponse to Councillor Marshall suggests some members are as thin skinned as he is . He's elected by our community to handle things of far greater importance and is more available to hear the grievances of members through his surgeries than most other candidates, I would imagine.

there's nothing shrill or thin-skinned about it - your own response could just as easily be characterised as "shrill".
Councillor Marshall's remarks in the local evening paper about "gossip and tittle-tattle" make him, in my opinion, unfit to represent POL on the committee and he should resign immediately and allow a representative of the forum community to take his place.

As for your comments about democracy, the forum community is a reflection of the whole Portobello community - only a small percentage are actively involved in community affairs - no contributor to the forum is compelled to join in - when they have something to say we get to hear it.
I welcome the statement by the POL site management team - now that we know who runs the site and how they run it we can contribute even more and we are entitled to our opinion about the future governance and direction of the site.
These opinions and ideas can be accepted or rejected as they arise.
Long live democracy!!!!

[xxxx]

xxxx, do not misrepresent me. I have never argued for complication, only clarity and transparency about issues such as decision-making powers etc.

Even before this structure has had a chance to meet you're suggesting changes. I say wait and see.
My opinion is that we're creating solutions for problems that don't really exist

You ask: "How much controversy can one little community site generate?"

Well, quite a lot, judging by the debate there has been on the web site over RBS sponsorship and so on. That's why the sub-committee needs to meet more often than twice a year.

Thats the point, there's been one really contentious issue regarding the site (I don't know what the 'and so on' refers to) and most of that was blown up by people who were perfectly placed to make their opinions known to their fellow volunteers before it even became an issue. If there's a lesson, its that you can't please everybody.

So the business community can express itself only by not paying - a weird view of democracy. How about, by paying, they have a right to some representation on the sub-committee? As Porty says, they are the major contributors to the coffers.

What's all this concern about democracy? They get a small service and thereby support a local amenity.
If they choose to support the site I don't see why they should have any particular editorial control except as individual members, I don't think the RBS was offered any. As I said, they have to be contacted individually to renew or subscribe, if they have problems with the site they can communicate them or approach the sub committee at any time.

You say "I don't think anything's set in stone" but it seems to me that there is a hierarchy of users on the web site, i.e. those who have "done something" for the web site and those who merely contribute their ideas and opinions on the forum. I wonder how many of the latter group's views are going to be taken into account on the running of the site. They have already been told that they have no right to criticise or question any decisions.

Too right there's a hierarchy-those that do and those that don't. Membership of either level is open and entirely voluntary. if you want to do something, go ahead and do it. Noone will stop you. Bob's always seeking volunteers and is certainly open to suggestions. None of the contributors I know of exert any editorial control though.
Where are the big questions regarding the forum? There's only one real rule, which is do not gratuitiously offend people. People are free to say, chat and argue about anything they want. What grand new directions does it need?

[Dadaist]

xxxx opined :

He's elected by our community to handle things of far greater importance

Yeppers, you can't compare POL with the forth bridges. I'm sure Lawrence must prefer the sound of the rail bridge groaning to our whining, so let's free up some more of his time so that he can concentrate on such riveting issues, rather than painting the pages of the Evening News with his rusty rhetoric.

[bearcub]

Yeppers, you can't compare POL with the forth bridges. I'm sure Lawrence must prefer the sound of the rail bridge groaning to our whining, so let's free up some more of his time so that he can concentrate on such riveting issues, rather than painting the pages of the Evening News with his rusty rhetoric.

[Porty]

Quote From: POLSMT

"OWNERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT OF THE WEBSITE

The domain name of Portobello Online is registered in the name of Bob Jefferson and is a non-profit making, community website produced by local unpaid volunteers. "

Question for the POLSMT Does the above mean that , as Bob is the registered owner of the domain name, if Bob decides to "pull" the website for whatever reason, he can do so?

[ali]

The big Announcement said:-

" The sub-committee can, if it desires, co-opt non-CC members."

Well? Is the desire there from the sub-commitee?

More importantly is there a demand from the POL community for that to happen and if there is, will the committee take any notice??

[xxxx]

Quote From: POLSMT

"OWNERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT OF THE WEBSITE

The domain name of Portobello Online is registered in the name of Bob Jefferson and is a non-profit making, community website produced by local unpaid volunteers. "

Question for the POLSMT Does the above mean that , as Bob is the registered owner of the domain name, if Bob decides to "pull" the website for whatever reason, he can do so?

Yet another thing to lose sleep over

[Porty]

Yet another thing to lose sleep over

Do you mean that Bob could just pull the site or are you being sarcastic?

[Dadaist]

As the owner of the site yes, he could pull it anytime.

[Sandra]

As the owner of the site yes, he could pull it anytime.

But Bob won't do that, surely you know that by now?

[Porty]

Well in that case the site cannot truly be a community website. Is there a mechanism, acceptable to Bob, for ensuring that POL is truly a community site, owned and controlled by the community?

Can I suggest a POLSMT Questions and Answers thread? In the past when questions have been asked they have been ignored or discussion has been refused.We have a new regime we surely don't want the old modus operandi?

[Zargonian]

Cheers Dadaist

makes things a bit clearer for the plebs like me...

With an avatar like that I always thought bellybabe was Egyptian or something

Do you ever give up trying to pull young man?

[Ed]

Councillor Marshall's remarks in the local evening paper about "gossip and tittle-tattle" make him, in my opinion, unfit to represent POL on the committee and he should resign immediately and allow a representative of the forum community to take his place.

Hear hear!

What is the the difference between gossip and tittle tattle?

[Jackson Priest]

Ed wrote

ali wrote:

Councillor Marshall's remarks in the local evening paper about "gossip and tittle-tattle" make him, in my opinion, unfit to represent POL on the committee and he should resign immediately and allow a representative of the forum community to take his place.


Hear hear!

What is the the difference between gossip and tittle tattle?

Hear hear from me too.

Some dictionary wrote

gos·sip
n.
1. Rumor or talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature.
2. A person who habitually spreads intimate or private rumors or facts.
3. Trivial, chatty talk or writing.
4. A close friend or companion.
5. Chiefly British. A godparent.

intr.v. gos·siped, gos·sip·ing, gos·sips
To engage in or spread gossip.

tit·tle-tat·tle
n.
Petty gossip; trivial talk.

intr.v. tit·tle-tat·tled, tit·tle-tat·tling, tit·tle-tat·tles
To talk idly or foolishly; gossip.

So it's the same thing basically, unless he was saying that most people on the forum are godparents who enjoy a bit of a gossip. Maybe that was it - I know I answer that description.

For me, I can't see what harm it would do to have somebody from the forum as a representative of the forum on the sub-committee - why not? And I'm glad Bob has got himself some help - it can't be an easy job to do (god i'm such a diplomat).

by the way
Dadaist wrote

Brian McCrow = Brian McCrow

JP

[Epykat]

Councillor Marshall's remarks in the local evening paper about "gossip and tittle-tattle" make him, in my opinion, unfit to represent POL on the committee and he should resign immediately and allow a representative of the forum community to take his place.

Totally agree. And anyway, does Lawrence actually KNOW that he's on this committee?

[Pal of Porty]

There seems to an awful lot of 'gossip and tittle-tattle' about Lawrence going on!

[wangi]

Quote From: POLSMT

"OWNERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT OF THE WEBSITE

The domain name of Portobello Online is registered in the name of Bob Jefferson and is a non-profit making, community website produced by local unpaid volunteers. "

Question for the POLSMT Does the above mean that , as Bob is the registered owner of the domain name, if Bob decides to "pull" the website for whatever reason, he can do so?

Actually portobello-edinburgh.org.uk (aka our old address) was registered by Bob and porty.org.uk was registered by Paul/xxxx.

[xxxx]

Quote From: POLSMT

"OWNERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT OF THE WEBSITE

The domain name of Portobello Online is registered in the name of Bob Jefferson and is a non-profit making, community website produced by local unpaid volunteers. "

Question for the POLSMT Does the above mean that , as Bob is the registered owner of the domain name, if Bob decides to "pull" the website for whatever reason, he can do so?

Actually portobello-edinburgh.org.uk (aka our old address) was registered by Bob and porty.org.uk was registered by Paul/xxxx.

And I was reimbursed by the community council, so it is owned by them as far as I am concerned. I'm merely the administrative contact now.

[Dadaist]

Thanks Paul so no individual could pull it?

There's also the question of who pays the hosting bill, and who owns/wrote the site and any custom modifications to it.

[Porty]

Thanks Paul so no individual could pull it?

There's also the question of who pays the hosting bill, and who owns/wrote the site and any custom modifications to it.

Sorry, I deleted my posts as I thought the questions had been addressed.

What are the implications of those other things, dada?