Battle Royale - Radio Free Porty vs MCPS/PRS

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 17:32

OK, welcome to the dance. Yes - RFP has been contacted by them.

I have mailed them back (it's only polite) so this thread will chart .... what happens next ...

Here's their opening salvo :

Hello,

I'm emailing from the Online Licensing department of the MCPS-PRS
Alliance, the licensing body representing songwriters, composers and
publishers within the UK.

We have become aware of music usage on the Radio Porty
(http://www.radiofreeporty.org/) service and therefore are contacting
you to ensure that all usage of our members' works is correctly
licensed. It may be that you may require a LOEL in order to offer this
service for our members' works. This is a blanket licence which operates
on a percentage of gross revenue, subject to a quarterly advance payment
dependent on the scale of the service and the level of repertoire usage.
I have attached the licence details to this email for your information.

Please get back to me so that we can discuss the licensing requirements
for your service. In the meantime, please note that the rights of the
MCPS, PRS and their respective members remain strictly reserved and
nothing in this email should be construed as a waiver of any such
rights.

Kind regards,

xxx

xxx yyyyyy * Online Licensing Consultant

The MCPS-PRS Alliance * 29-33 Berners St * London W1T 3AB

Visit our website * www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk

here is my response :

Hello xxx and thankyou for your kind email. How did you become aware of us and our transmissions?

We will shortly be moving our shoutcast server outside of the UK to escape your clutches.

You're more than welcome to shut us down at the moment as I'm sure you have the capability and motivation to do so - in fact if doing so helps you achieve your monthly target or contributes to your bonus, I'll be quite happy.

Rest assured though that the people of Portobello will still be able to connect to our stream as we have been ready for you for some time. At this moment, our stream may or may not be emanating from a location in Texas - but unless you were able to glean the server logs from our current provider you'd have no way of knowing!!

We are an internet-only entity, and one of around 600 streams on Shoutcast. The fact that we have the Portobello moniker and are a supposedly "local" service does not grasp the truly global nature of the internet - for instance, this email address is with gmail.com and is probably based in the states too.

Given that the point of transmission of your members' music may or may not emanate from the UK, that the hosted server may or may not be in the UK, and that the listeners may or may not be in the UK, I would question whether we should be paying you any money for starters - although you probably have the lawyers to answer that one.

Whilst I agree with you that all revenue is indeed gross by definition, may I also point out that we don't got no revenue. Does that mean that our percentage of zero as payment to you is also zero if we went legit? Much as I hate even the thought of writing a cheque for nowt to the copyrighters, I could be swayed.

see you in cyberspace

Radio Free Porty

Novastar · Post by **Novastar** » 14 Oct 2005, 17:58

Wasn't this the lot who tried taking 10 year olds to court for downloading MP3's?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 18:16

Novastar wrote:Wasn't this the lot who tried taking 10 year olds to court for downloading MP3's?

Most probably.

I think I'm probably going to have to set up a password-only discussion for our DJs and organizers, now that we are going deeper underground.

Watch this space.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 18:29

copyright posee :

Hello,

Thank you for your quick response.

Could I have your telephone number so we can talk about this in person please? Alternatively, you may call me on the below number. I'm in the office for a little while yet this evening so I'll look forward to hearing back from you.

Kind regards,

xxx

me :

Hey xxx - I'd like our conversation to be public and a matter of record for people to read on the web - I will be making this and all emails between us readable by all. Please continue ...

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:04

Go Dadaist, go Dadaist....

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:08

I think he's gone home now as he has not mailed me again.

Can I fly a jolly roger on the RFP site?

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:09

Oh, well. If the worst happens, here's a suggested group avatar for us DJs to use.

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:11

Like the hats, and stripes are soooooo this year, dahling

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:12

Our new friend xxxx :

Hello,

Could I ask you kindly to take my full name and contact details off the site please?

Thank you,

xxxx

xxxx yyyyyy l Online Licensing Consultant

The MCPS-PRS Alliance l 29-33 Berners St l London W1T 3AB

My response :

Why? What law was I breaking?

Post by **wangi** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:32

I'd say it would be common courtesy to remove the details if asked.

L/

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:33

wangi wrote:I'd say it would be common courtesy to remove the details if asked.

L/

fair point - and as a moderator on the board I'm supposed to play ball. done.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:42

I'm about to go on holiday. I may be gone some time.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 19:46

Bob Jefferson wrote:I'm about to go on holiday. I may be gone some time.

You have yourself a fantastic vacation sir, be sure and send me a postcard.

OHMS.

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 14 Oct 2005, 20:28

ecm wrote:Oh, well. If the worst happens, here's a suggested group avatar for us DJs to use.

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 14 Oct 2005, 20:42

Just out of interest, what exactly is required to make RFP 'legal'? Apart from a share of nil profits, that is.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 20:49

bearcub wrote:Just out of interest, what exactly is required to make RFP 'legal'? Apart from a share of nil profits, that is.

Dunno. Do you want to look into it for us?

Post by **wangi** » 14 Oct 2005, 20:50

The vast majority (all?) of the music being played is commercial and licenced. Thus legally a licence to broadcast the material should be obtained and more than likely royalties paid. I would assume.

No doubt the server could be moved to some African or Asian sh** hole with minimal copyright law.

I do not agree with the music industry methods and explotation, but I do think it is fair call to expect payment for producing/creating music.

In an ideal world radio would be free and musicians would be paid through gigging. However it's not...

EDIT: Idea for legality - setup a scheme of micro-payments (say Â£1 a month) that can then be used to calculate a %age of income? Be wary too that donations to date will probably be considered income...

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 14 Oct 2005, 20:52

At a guess - a huge amount of paperwork, a full-time administrator to work out all the Â£0.whatever pence the artist is due each time their record is played, a lawyer...

But you can see the point because, as Elton John will tell you, flowers don't grow on trees you know.

Rock Star Aid - please give generously.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 20:55

I encourage anyone who has heard music on RFP to go out and buy the single for their granny.

Wang, I appreciate the sentiment but to deride entire continents and their cultures as ****holes is not very nice - at least by implication that those countries with stringent copyright legislation are "better" in some way.

Post by **wangi** » 14 Oct 2005, 21:01

Yeah I know Dada - that wasn't the intention, only the turn of phrase. I like Asian sh** holes - we could learn a lot from them. Certainly where the world's at these days.

I've had my fill of copyright this week - this thread being only half of the story (and I was on the legal, but a annoying bugger, side).

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 14 Oct 2005, 21:12

Dadaist wrote:
bearcub wrote:Just out of interest, what exactly is required to make RFP 'legal'? Apart from a share of nil profits, that is.
Dunno. Do you want to look into it for us?

Well, apparently RFP needs an LOEL to protect it from the dangers of volcanic ash - well worth it I think considering Edinburgh's history............................oh wait, wrong LOEL....phew, close one

LOEL for licensing purposes seems to amount to a hell of a lot of (Bob, you're right) paperwork, and a not inconsiderable fee of.............Â£631.56....per quarter.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 21:26

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 14 Oct 2005, 21:30

That's one hell of a jumble sale. Let's abandon the whole thing and move swiftly on to 'Portabelly Telly'. I've already signed up Gail Porter. What else do we need?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Oct 2005, 21:33

Bob Jefferson wrote:That's one hell of a jumble sale. Let's abandon the whole thing and move swiftly on to 'Portabelly Telly'. I've already signed up Gail Porter. What else do we need?

A wig.

Jackson Priest · Post by **Jackson Priest** » 14 Oct 2005, 21:36

bearcub wrote

LOEL for licensing purposes seems to amount to a hell of a lot of (Bob, you're right) paperwork, and a not inconsiderable fee of.............Â£631.56....per quarter.

So how does that pertain to a non-profit making organisation, such as Radio Free Porty is? I take it they demand the cash upfront while taking the 3 months (or more) to ascertain whether or not organisation is indeed non-profit making???

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 14 Oct 2005, 22:00

Jackson Priest wrote:So how does that pertain to a non-profit making organisation, such as Radio Free Porty is? I take it they demand the cash upfront while taking the 3 months (or more) to ascertain whether or not organisation is indeed non-profit making???

Doesn't seem to matter, fee is payable for 'music usage' >10 hrs. Whether the organisation is a profit/non-profit making one is a different question entirely....and probably means more money!

LOEL application

Whoops, probably breaking copyright law and liable for a fee for posting that link

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 15 Oct 2005, 10:32

Coming up next on RFP - uninterrupted and unlicensed - Johnny Cash live at Folsom & San Quentin

Novastar · Post by **Novastar** » 15 Oct 2005, 17:27

Chris Moyles on radio 1 was talking about this a while ago. Not sure if it's the same for everyone but...

they have someone in the studio who has to write down EVERY TRACK played and how long it was played for. They send this off to someone who works out who has the copywrite on things, works out the fees and sends an 'invoice' back to them.

This came about because he kept playing 1 second of a song 20 odd times so she had to write them all down.

Anyway, what's the difference between this and having our CD collection on loud with an open window. Listeners can't choose what's played, there is no money changing hands and its not stopping people buying the music (they're not buying the music nowadays because 95% is Simon Cowell made, manufactured ^%!*$).

rant over

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 15 Oct 2005, 17:39

I can honestly say that I have been inspired by some of the stuff I have heard on RFP for the first time and it is highly likely that I will now seek out and buy some of it. Surely we should be charging the artists for promoting their music?

Seriously, I think it's fine to expect payment from commercial radio stations, but to apply the same rules to 'not for profit' organisations is ridiculous.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 17 Oct 2005, 14:54

Today's story starts with this mail :

To: Radiofreeporty.org

Dear Sirs,

My name is cccc ppppp and I work for the Anti Piracy Unit of the Mechanical Copyright Protection Society (MCPS). The MCPS is a collecting society within the music industry representing music publishers and composers. The purpose of MCPS is (on behalf of its members) to negotiate agreements with those who wish to copy or distribute music, to collect royalties due from the recording of members' copyright musical works and to distribute those royalties to the appropriate copyright owners. The Anti Piracy Unit of MCPS exists in order to investigate criminal offences in all areas of music piracy.

We have been notified of the website www.radiofreeporty.org (IP 82.41.51.41) of which you are the registered content providers - the site is offering unlicensed radio streams including our members' copyright works e.g. at 12:20 GMT today you streamed 'Crazy About You' by Whiskytown (composed by Ryan Adams and published by our member BUG MUSIC LTD (GB)).

I understand that our Online Licensing department has attempted to license your station but you have failed to comply to their requests.

As a result, I would like to ask www.radiofreeporty.org to remove the infringing content from the website immediately as it is clearly infringing our members' copyright. I would ask that you take down this site within 48 hours and confirm that this request has been carried out.

Alternatively please contact my colleague zzz ppppppp about obtaining a licence.

Thank you.

Yours faithfully,

xxxx yyyyyy l Internet Investigations Officer l MCPS/PRS Anti-Piracy Unit

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 17 Oct 2005, 15:01

So, they got very serious very quickly, although this probably wasn't helped by me phoning them and giving them a lecture on big corporations and how record labels and companies conspire to fix cd prices. Duh.

So anyway, my responsibility is much more than to myself - I have to ensure that the Polis don't kick down my door as I presume it would upset BB and Neo-Dadaist, and I have Bob, POL and my nice DJs to worry about too.

Since we don't have Â£1600 right now under the RFP mattress, I will be removing all licensed content from the playlist tonight.

As far as I know, this doesn't leave much, but I guess it's a start and it means we are legit. I have discussed this at length on the phone to the Copyright Police, and we have a position of trust which goes like this :

1. I don't schedule anything which their "members" have the rights to.

2. They don't send in a SWAT team to smash down my door.

This means that I am now quite interested in keeping my end intact (1) so that they don't have to do theirs (2)

So local talent is fine, as long as they have given us permission and aren't singing cover versions of Bryan Adams. Etc.

golly!

Dada

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 17 Oct 2005, 15:07

So..... anyone out there any good at playing the spoons? Imitating bird calls?

Post by **wangi** » 17 Oct 2005, 15:19

http://www.dmusic.com/
http://www.opsound.org/
http://www.soundclick.com/

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 17 Oct 2005, 15:26

wangi wrote:http://www.dmusic.com/
http://www.opsound.org/
http://www.soundclick.com/

You lovely person. *This* is where it starts.

DJs - please take note and start thinking about legal playlists please.

Any other links will be welcome too.

As of midnight we start transmitting legal material only, plus the "**** the PRS" track that Ras I Tomato is dubbing as we speak.

Novastar · Post by **Novastar** » 17 Oct 2005, 16:23

Seeing as it was probably publicity in certain papers that brought this about in the first place (it's been going for a while and then suddenly all this happens when it goes in the paper?..?

) what about using that again.

Local community project shut down by vicious evil conglomerates who want to poison our ears with Britney Spears.

Could also give a shout out to anyone who wanted their music up.
I understand that most music is OK after 25 years if it isn't renewed so anything obscure from the 50s and 60s might be OK (needs checking) and classical stuff is OK (bet Mozart never got royaltys)