"Je ne regrette rien"

[foxy]

Interesting that Dadaist feels justified and happy with his performance on the 3 questions for those who support the use of torture thread

In a face to face discussion it is possible to watch the reactions of others to what is being said, and to adjust your tone accordingly. On-line that is obviously not possible and you therefore have no way of knowing how you are being perceived, unless someone tells you

Dadaist, you threw down the gauntlet to those who had voted pro-torture in an earlier poll, encouraging them to "feel free to answer anonymously (I won't look up your IP address) if you don't have the spine to reveal yourself", calling them "morally bankrupt hypocritical cowards", having previously accused them of hiding behind the anonymity of the poll

Predictably, Porty jumped in and played devils advocate whilst you proceeded to verbally bully him, still trying to encourage others to join the debate…not surprisingly very few did.

When ifstar dared to post on day 4 of the thread, you savaged him and referred back to an earlier time when you felt he had insulted you and saying "Whereas Porty deserves an answer from me for any given question or scenario he poses, you don't". So you only play with people you claim to respect despite calling for "an open and inclusive debate"

I have been feeling increasingly uncomfortable as an observer and would certainly not have opened myself up for the same treatment as the others received…cowardly maybe. You could say if you don't like the programme, then change the channel or switch off but that is not the point. I am one if the top ten posters on the forum, and I have until now been more than happy to put forward my point of view, without fear of being brutalized…after all, I am protected by the posting guidelines am I not?

1. Personal attacks against forum members will not be tolerated. This includes, but is not limited to, attacks on the comments, ideas, language skills, spelling, punctuation, age, gender, sexual orientation, physical appearance, ability/disabilty, politics and cultural or religious beliefs of other forum members. Your right to freedom of speech has to be balanced with your responsibility not to cause offence. You are free to debate and to disagree, but in a manner that is respectful of the rights and feelings of others.

I am interested in hearing the views of other forum members and also the views of the other moderators with regard to how this debate has faired against the posting guidelines

[Dadaist]

When ifstar dared to post on day 4 of the thread, you savaged him and referred back to an earlier time when you felt he had insulted you and saying "Whereas Porty deserves an answer from me for any given question or scenario he poses, you don't". So you only play with people you claim to respect despite calling for "an open and inclusive debate"

No, I'm happy with everyone except ifstar. ifstar specifically said that if I ever had anything to say to him in the future, I was to go and talk to my pot plants.

[Sandra]

I have been feeling increasingly uncomfortable as an observer and would certainly not have opened myself up for the same treatment as the others received…cowardly maybe. You could say if you don't like the programme, then change the channel or switch off but that is not the point.

I too have felt uncomfortable and there's no way I would have got into a discussion like the one between Porty/Dadaist. There have been occasions when I have felt unwilling to post and uncomfortable with the aggressive style of "discussion". I and others should never feel this way as it is just a forum.

[Gizmo]

Absolutely agree with everything you put so eloquently Foxy.

I lurked on this site for a while before posting, but if I had seen posts of the manner of the torture thread before, I certainly would not have bothered coming back to this site.....

[Dadaist]

This reminds me of the scene in "Apocalypse Now" where Kurtz remarks that US soldiers are allowed to drop napalm on civilians but aren't allowed to write the word "f**k" because it's obscene.

If it's ok to suggest torturing one's fellow man, to then suggest that fear of being brutalized with words is grounds for complaint strikes me as a double standard.

[ecm]

A thread on such a topic was always going to have potential to make for uncomfortable reading though, wasn't it? And like the "Bomb or fish supper " thread about the death of De Menezes, there are extremely differing opinions on such matters and the posters who hold these opposing views are not likely ever to see eye to eye.

I, for one, doubt many, if any such viewpoints would be altered or tempered by an on-line discussion but some people obviously enjoy the cut and thrust of debating heavier issues than others.
Personally, I got bored with the exchanges as it was clear from the start that the end result would have to be that Dada and Porty would have to agree to disagree and I couldn't see that it was anything other than going over and over the same old ground.
I didn't feel unable or unwilling to post. I just wasn't that interested. It's a shame if others felt intimated to the point where they decided not to post though.
I am disappointed that Dada feels as he does about ifstar but he has stated his reasoning for that so I guess that's his business.

[ifstar]

No, I'm happy with everyone except ifstar. ifstar specifically said that if I ever had anything to say to him in the future, I was to go and talk to my pot plants.

Ah ok, so since I told you to speak to your plants on the 5 or 6th of July I think and then you replied to me with the private message below on the 8th July, you can see why I got thought you might have been willing to discuss what I had posted in a grown up manner. Sorry if I had misunderstood what you ment when you posted the pm below to me. My point in the torture thead was that I was unsure if people could definitely put someone else's wellbeing in front of their family. I think most people would have some conflict going on in there head in that situation, but I am happy to accept that you feel that you wouldn't.

From: Dadaist
To: ifstar
Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:15 pm
Subject: Re: In response to your Q's (thats questions BTW)
nice one, many thanks and a soupcon of grudging respect

looking forward to sparring in the future

yeah, i had no clue what an OP was. nada, zilch.

cheers

matthew

[Dadaist]

the real motivation behind ifstar's question can be gleaned from the following statement that he thought i was someone who

avoids a question because if they answered it completely honestly then they would more than likely just contradict what they have said for the past 7 pages of a discussion.

i have actually supplied ifstar with a generic one-size-fits-all answer for him to mold at will to any hypothetical scenario he wishes, extract my answer and comment without any need for input from me

even if i had been minded to answer ifstar's juvenile scenario in an adult manner (spot the non sequitur) he has tripped himself up by revealing that his motivation was to somehow paint me as being dishonest!

i took a pile of flak over the riot photos thread and completely forgot that i'd made up with ifstar - it totally slipped my mind. oops!

just because me and ifstar put our respective daggers away on that occasion does not mean that ifstar didn't say :

You are a very sad and bored individual.
Living with you must be such a pleasure.

[scossie5]

Bravo foxy for starting this thread. Sadly, (to me) the thrust of Dadaist's initial questions were completely overrun by the 'batting' back and forth of 2/3 very opiniated forum posters.

Also, asking answers on gross violence or inhumane acts are often very easy to answer. It is the many shades below that where morals get obscured. One step after another, forcing an assent by presenting it as an undeniable logical step are just part of the practice of a skilled negotiator. Then it becomes browbeating, then it becomes bullying. Who defines torture?

I know that Dadaist was conducting his own personal interrogation of whoever made their opinions known in a poll, and I guess he might have been in high moral dudgeon when he started it but the thread smacked of violence to me.

Unlike many on this forum I wouldn't know another forum member if I passed them on the street. Sadly, if I knew who some members were I would cross it first.

[Dadaist]

Unlike many on this forum I wouldn't know another forum member if I passed them on the street. Sadly, if I knew who some members were I would cross it first.

Calm down dear, it's just the internets. POL Torture Posse members have been known to come round to my house!!

[Cynthia]

Edit 1 - I must have been posting at the same time as Dadaist - this is in reply to previous responses:

Sadly this thread seems to be turning into a personal attack on one Forum member - which is a bit hypocritical as its supposed to be about not attacking individuals -if you have a serious problem with someone's postings I suggest you appeal to the moderators using the rule which you have quoted ie 1. Personal attacks against forum members will not be tolerated.

I say serious problem, because sometimes I would have wished for an alternative way of responding to my postings by others (no names) but not seriously concerned enough to complain. However you have every right to do so - I thought that was what the Mods were for?

I just don't like the way this thread seems to be going...it seems to be targetting one person - exactly what we are not supposed to be doing -
quite rightly as it could be called bullying.

Carla

[scossie5]

Fair dos and apologies.

Just slightly miffed that some thoughtful discussion about levels of tolerance to what would normally be considered intolerable became a bit of a slanging match with little chance for anyone else to jump in.

I accept that Dada's opponents are also his real world mates, but then that's why I sometimes wish they could do their posting face-to-face (over a beer obviously) and let a few others explore ideas.

And please, Dada, don't use Michael Winner as inspiration for your putdowns. You are better than that.

[Dadaist]

I reserve the right to make second-rate putdowns.

[foxy]

I thought that was what the Mods were for?

Carla

Carla

To the best of my knowledge there is no complaints procedure on POL. It's a discussion forum. I decided to exercise my rights of freedom of speech, discuss my opinions openly and to seek the views of others, including the moderators.

Sheila

[Dadaist]

I decided to exercise my rights of freedom of speech, discuss my opinions openly

Me too.

[Maria]

To the best of my knowledge there is no complaints procedure on POL.

We usually try to intervene in a thread before any complaint becomes necessary, but we're only human and sometimes things escape our attention.

If a user feels that a post/user has breached guidelines I would urge them to make use of the private messaging facility and let one of the Mods know.

[Cynthia]

Scossie5 wrote: Fair dos and apologies.

Just slightly miffed that some thoughtful discussion about levels of tolerance to what would normally be considered intolerable became a bit of a slanging match with little chance for anyone else to jump in.

Foxy wrote: To the best of my knowledge there is no complaints procedure on POL. It's a discussion forum. I decided to exercise my rights of freedom of speech, discuss my opinions openly and to seek the views of others, including the moderators.

Thanks - I don't mind "thoughtful discussion about levels of tolerance" etc - in fact I think that is healthy and a useful thread to have - but I don't like individuals being targetted by what seemed to be a growing number of posters....if people have a problem with someone's postings, contact the Mods as Marya points out ----that I presume is the complaints procedure ??

I just didn't like the way this thread was going......it made me uncomfortable - not trying to lecture or anything I just wanted to stop it before it go out of hand --- Carla (Caroline)

[Cynthia]

Wooppeee - I've just become Porty Obsessed - wasn't sure when it changes - how far have I to go before I become truly sad and the ultimate level?? anyone know?

Carla

[Dadaist]

Wooppeee - I've just become Porty Obsessed - wasn't sure when it changes - how far have I to go before I become truly sad and the ultimate level?? anyone know?

Carla

Congratulations! To become truly sad is not a number of posts, my young apprentice, it is a state of mind.

[Cynthia]

I take back all my defences of you Dada - ! only kidding - let us into the secrets of POL's grading system????? - all you top 20 pollsters have so many 1,000's of postings I can only guess its "a lot" -

Carla

[Dadaist]

I take back all my defences of you Dada - ! only kidding - let us into the secrets of POL's grading system????? - all you top 20 pollsters have so many 1,000's of postings I can only guess its "a lot" -

Carla

I was covering up for the fact that I don't know how many posts it takes!

[Maria]

let us into the secrets of POL's grading system????? - all you top 20 pollsters have so many 1,000's of postings I can only guess its "a lot" -

Carla

Congratulations Carla and here, specially for you, are our rankings, but don't tell anyone else

newbie 1

portyperson 10

portyregular 25

importy 50

veryimporty 100

portyobsessed 200

portypotty 500

[Porty]

To the best of my knowledge there is no complaints procedure on POL.

We usually try to intervene in a thread before any complaint becomes necessary, but we're only human and sometimes things escape our attention.

If a user feels that a post/user has breached guidelines I would urge them to make use of the private messaging facility and let one of the Mods know.

I am not so sure that Foxy's post is a complaint per-se, she is inviting discussion and review of the thread.

Marya, I can accept but scarcely believe that all of the other mods were not following the thread. However, you are now all aware of the thread and Foxy has requested that the Mods review the thread against the posting guidelines. I know yoiu will do that and you may find that Dada and I did not breach the guidelines. Personally, I think there are breaches.

I think there are lessons for all of us in this, I have learned some already. And I think its very important that we have transparency. You will probably need to discuss this in private but it is not down to how you 3 or 4?"view" things or what you opinions are. The guidelines are there in black and white, as is the thread. Please evaluate and publish so that we can all learn.

You may have missed my suggestion for a "report this post" facility, which is a feature of other php bulletin boards. I don't know how easy it is to install but it may be a useful feature in future.

Edit: changed 3 to 4.

[Dadaist]

The ultimate authority on all things inter-board related is the Management Troika.

I do have a mod vote though.

[foxy]

I am not so sure that Foxy's post is a complaint per-se, she is inviting discussion and review of the thread.

Correct assumption. My issue is with the tone in which the torture debate was conducted. Of course it is an emotive subject and feelings are bound to run high. I am reminded of drivers with road rage who seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to yell and shout at other drivers from the safety of their little steel boxes, but move that behaviour into the street or into the home and it is nothing short of bullying. I believe that the majority of people would not dream of behaving that way out of their box (or away from their keyboard)

[Dadaist]

Any members of the POL Thumbscrew Club are welcome to come round to my house with a printout of any of my comments, which I will be more than happy to repeat to their face, over a coffee/tea and a selection of biscuits.

You can all come in a posse if you like. My door is always open.

[Epykat]

Personally, I got bored with the exchanges as it was clear from the start that the end result would have to be that Dada and Porty would have to agree to disagree and I couldn't see that it was anything other than going over and over the same old ground.
I didn't feel unable or unwilling to post. I just wasn't that interested. It's a shame if others felt intimated to the point where they decided not to post though.

Thanks E. that saved me a lot of typing!