At hogmanay I believe there were around 130,000 revellers in Edinburgh City Centre most of whom had imbibed large quantities of alchohol. Yet there were only 5 arrests and I have it on good authority that there were only 13 incidents involving police.
How come only a few thousend, presumably sober and so called peaceful protesters managed to generate hundreds of arrests at some of the G8 marches?
I guess many people will blame the police themselves but they were present at all of the events. What gives?
Peaceful Protest
Re: Peaceful Protest
I can only guess that the difference is at G8, some protesters are more angry or more confrontational than they might be at Hogmanay?Porty wrote:How come only a few thousend, presumably sober and so called peaceful protesters managed to generate hundreds of arrests at some of the G8 marches?
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Ed
Ed
I can guess that it was the over the top hype by the media prior to G8 which generated expectation of violence - which was then delivered.
PS there were no arrests that I know of in Portobello - but that's probably coz Bearcub and Mr E buttered up the two local bobbies
PS there were no arrests that I know of in Portobello - but that's probably coz Bearcub and Mr E buttered up the two local bobbies
Enough of your nonsense - get back to the Play Pen!
I'm not sure if it's useful to compare two events, one of which is a celebration and the other a demonstration - other than they were both on Princes St and involved crowds and police.
There were two "demos" during the G8 - and I don't think there was trouble during the Make Poverty History march - the anarchist carnival was obviously a different matter.
Individual scuffles are nothing compared to a riot, which nobody wants - but what starts them? You can get huge rugby games with not a whisper, and football games with trouble - although I guess there's rival teams.
Crowd dynamics are odd - maybe all it takes is some troublemakers (on either side) and everyone else pitches in?
I think Epykat is right in terms of expectation and hype - although the anarchists were stupid in terms of delivering what was expected - if you've been on the end of a media barrage expecting violence for a while and then deliver a peaceful demo, you can score big points for your cause by being better behaved than the Law.
I was at a huge (1 million) protest just before the Iraq war in Florence, composed of (among others) a large "anti-capitalist" contingent. Everyone was expecting trouble - not least the frothing local media, who had called on the locals to rise up in a resistance movement like in world war 2. Add to that the infamous Carabinieri riot coppers and the fact that a demonstrator had been shot by them recently, and it looked like a showdown - and it passed off peacefully, making the media look like buffoons.
As well as hype, anger and expectations, I think location has a lot to do with it as well. If a demo was in an enormous field there would be nothing to police - but it was outside Jenners or allowed to go on this street but not that etc - then you can get a standoff.
I like a good demo, but only if I can find a nice takeaway coffee and also toilet facilities.
There were two "demos" during the G8 - and I don't think there was trouble during the Make Poverty History march - the anarchist carnival was obviously a different matter.
Individual scuffles are nothing compared to a riot, which nobody wants - but what starts them? You can get huge rugby games with not a whisper, and football games with trouble - although I guess there's rival teams.
Crowd dynamics are odd - maybe all it takes is some troublemakers (on either side) and everyone else pitches in?
I think Epykat is right in terms of expectation and hype - although the anarchists were stupid in terms of delivering what was expected - if you've been on the end of a media barrage expecting violence for a while and then deliver a peaceful demo, you can score big points for your cause by being better behaved than the Law.
I was at a huge (1 million) protest just before the Iraq war in Florence, composed of (among others) a large "anti-capitalist" contingent. Everyone was expecting trouble - not least the frothing local media, who had called on the locals to rise up in a resistance movement like in world war 2. Add to that the infamous Carabinieri riot coppers and the fact that a demonstrator had been shot by them recently, and it looked like a showdown - and it passed off peacefully, making the media look like buffoons.
As well as hype, anger and expectations, I think location has a lot to do with it as well. If a demo was in an enormous field there would be nothing to police - but it was outside Jenners or allowed to go on this street but not that etc - then you can get a standoff.
I like a good demo, but only if I can find a nice takeaway coffee and also toilet facilities.
Excellent and well considered response Dada, thank you.
I agree with what you say above (and much of the rest of what you said) but weren't a lot of the arrests at G8 in a field?Dadaist wrote: I think location has a lot to do with it as well. If a demo was in an enormous field there would be nothing to police - but it was outside Jenners or allowed to go on this street but not that etc - then you can get a standoff.
Qualification - I guess I meant a peaceful empty field, not one with a perimeter fence protecting mass murderers.Porty wrote:Excellent and well considered response Dada, thank you.
I agree with what you say above (and much of the rest of what you said) but weren't a lot of the arrests at G8 in a field?Dadaist wrote: I think location has a lot to do with it as well. If a demo was in an enormous field there would be nothing to police - but it was outside Jenners or allowed to go on this street but not that etc - then you can get a standoff.
This is against my better judgement but here goes.
As Porty said, there were arrests in a field at Auchterarder. What happened was that there was a row of riot police at the edge of the field who allowed people to walk past them into the field. Once the people were in the field they were charged at by mounted police and then a helicopter load of riot police was dropped into their midst. The protestors were allowed into the field and then became sitting ducks once they had got in; they could easily have been kept out in the first place.
As Porty said, there were arrests in a field at Auchterarder. What happened was that there was a row of riot police at the edge of the field who allowed people to walk past them into the field. Once the people were in the field they were charged at by mounted police and then a helicopter load of riot police was dropped into their midst. The protestors were allowed into the field and then became sitting ducks once they had got in; they could easily have been kept out in the first place.
So that sounds like the police entrapped and then attacked the protesters, which certainly didn't happen at hogmanay. So there's one major difference.
Was the auchterader protest intended to be a peaceful? Why did the police deploy such an aggressive strategy ? I vividly recall there being no trouble at the MPH march but there were arrests at other edinburgh marches/demos, correct?
Was the auchterader protest intended to be a peaceful? Why did the police deploy such an aggressive strategy ? I vividly recall there being no trouble at the MPH march but there were arrests at other edinburgh marches/demos, correct?
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Bob Jefferson
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It may have been a relatively peaceful Hogmanay in Edinburgh but it seems to have been a different story in England, where extended drinking hours are being blamed for alcohol-related violence:
Stabbings and drunken violence mar New Year's Eve across country
Stabbings and drunken violence mar New Year's Eve across country
The police strategy - who knows. The main march at Auchterader was intended to be peaceful as it had obtained permission to go ahead - so no doubt was built by the Stop The War Coalition, who wouldn't want trouble.
That doesn't mean that there weren't people on the march who wouldn't have taken every bit of pleasure in breaking through to the hotel en masse and disrupting Bush - but I don't think that was ever on the cards. What we got was some stragglers who failed to get in.
You could never have organised direct action on that scale and not get infiltrated - but that doesn't mean that some souls would try anyway and no doubt get nabbed.
Overall, in order to not waste everybody's time and money - police and demonstrators all - we should just have arrested Bush when he set foot on Scots tarmac, put him in Dungavel or turned his plane around. In my opinion.
That doesn't mean that there weren't people on the march who wouldn't have taken every bit of pleasure in breaking through to the hotel en masse and disrupting Bush - but I don't think that was ever on the cards. What we got was some stragglers who failed to get in.
You could never have organised direct action on that scale and not get infiltrated - but that doesn't mean that some souls would try anyway and no doubt get nabbed.
Overall, in order to not waste everybody's time and money - police and demonstrators all - we should just have arrested Bush when he set foot on Scots tarmac, put him in Dungavel or turned his plane around. In my opinion.
Not exactly realistic tho is it?Dadaist wrote:Overall, in order to not waste everybody's time and money - police and demonstrators all - we should just have arrested Bush when he set foot on Scots tarmac, put him in Dungavel or turned his plane around. In my opinion.
Unless I am mistaken there was a history of trouble at these demos, I'm sure people have died on similar occassions. I guess the police are a bit overzealous for the reasons that you gave above; demonstration v celebration.
No, not realistic - ironic.Porty wrote:Not exactly realistic tho is it?Dadaist wrote:Overall, in order to not waste everybody's time and money - police and demonstrators all - we should just have arrested Bush when he set foot on Scots tarmac, put him in Dungavel or turned his plane around. In my opinion.
Unless I am mistaken there was a history of trouble at these demos, I'm sure people have died on similar occassions. I guess the police are a bit overzealous for the reasons that you gave above; demonstration v celebration.
Yes, you're right - there is a history of "trouble" - although I'm more inclined to think favourably of a Korean farmer with nothing to lose confronting Chinese-controlled riot police than some college kid in Seattle.