To tie in with our new poll I thought I would start a new thread on this subject to allow people to air their views. What do YOU think? Where do our local councillors stand on the issue? Why do the Lib Dems support congestion charging nationally yet oppose it locally? What does the SSP have to say on the subject?
Maybe the big question is this - if we don't go for congestion charging, what is the realistic alternative?
Congestion charging
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Guest
First off the mark with a statement of support for congestion charging is Maureen Child. In her role as Executive Member for Sustainability and Finance, Maureen is a Non-Executive Director of Transport Initiative Edinburgh (ties). She recommends that you first read the most recent update, which is available at:
http://porty.org.uk/pdf/ties.pdf
Maureen writes:
"I am wholly in favour of congestion charging and Edinburgh's Integrated Transport Initiative of which it is a key part. Without congestion charging in 2006, on current trends in traffic growth, our neighbourhood will become constantly like Brunstane Road is now at peak periods in just 20 years time. We will not be able to afford the public transport that will give us the best alternatives to the private car in Edinburgh. There will be no tram except one loop in North Edinburgh, no substantial bus service improvements and not enough cash to maintain our streets beyond current levels. Motorists only pay one quarter of the cost to society of their motoring - it's time we polluters began to pay just a little bit more for a better quality of life for everybody."
http://porty.org.uk/pdf/ties.pdf
Maureen writes:
"I am wholly in favour of congestion charging and Edinburgh's Integrated Transport Initiative of which it is a key part. Without congestion charging in 2006, on current trends in traffic growth, our neighbourhood will become constantly like Brunstane Road is now at peak periods in just 20 years time. We will not be able to afford the public transport that will give us the best alternatives to the private car in Edinburgh. There will be no tram except one loop in North Edinburgh, no substantial bus service improvements and not enough cash to maintain our streets beyond current levels. Motorists only pay one quarter of the cost to society of their motoring - it's time we polluters began to pay just a little bit more for a better quality of life for everybody."
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Guest
Hmm... I feel quite conflicted on this one. I am a car owner who works in the city centre so congestion charging directly affects me. But I already use public transport, despite having access to a parking space on Queen Street where I work.
I do this on the basis that travelling by bus is less stressful, and we are, in Portobello, blessed with an excellent bus service in the Number 26.
So congestion charging should be a good thing for me... Except that how much better can public transport get? Portobello Railway station has been bypassed... the tram line is coming nowhere near us... and there is limited scope for further bus lanes. And we are already served by a bus that runs every five minutes throughout the day.
So I think I'm probably inclined to vote against. I don't see any benefit for Portobello.
The environmental argument, of course, is another thing entirely. But a city-by-city congestion charge is not the way forward IMHO - it's a blunt instrument (like the poll tax) which penalises irrespective of the ability to pay.
I do this on the basis that travelling by bus is less stressful, and we are, in Portobello, blessed with an excellent bus service in the Number 26.
So congestion charging should be a good thing for me... Except that how much better can public transport get? Portobello Railway station has been bypassed... the tram line is coming nowhere near us... and there is limited scope for further bus lanes. And we are already served by a bus that runs every five minutes throughout the day.
So I think I'm probably inclined to vote against. I don't see any benefit for Portobello.
The environmental argument, of course, is another thing entirely. But a city-by-city congestion charge is not the way forward IMHO - it's a blunt instrument (like the poll tax) which penalises irrespective of the ability to pay.
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Surrealist
What about horses, Marya? We could use horses. Reading your paragraph cold makes it sound like we are only just discovering parts of Edinburgh that were previously unknown because nobody had the strength to climb the hills.
Cars are a new development.
You fail to address Maureen's two main points and really fail to even acknowledge them - that is :
1) congestion is chronic and getting worse and is caused by car owners themselves
2) car and fuel charges do not take into account the real cost of motoring - if you built in the cost of motorways, for example, into the cost of a car they would be unaffordable
car owners who argue against congestion charges are, arguably, conceited, arrogant, hypocritical and short-sighted
they fill their lives with unneccessary journeys in empty vehicles and when they get stuck in a jam, they fail to realise that their own car is in fact part of the problem
someone should suggest asthma charging - make car owners pay for schoolkids inhalers - that would put the cat amongst the pigeons
you only have to look at the US to see how this automotive nightmare has shaped their society - enormous cars, miles of tarmac, dead towns and wars fought over cheap fuel
i'm taking the bus.
Cars are a new development.
You fail to address Maureen's two main points and really fail to even acknowledge them - that is :
1) congestion is chronic and getting worse and is caused by car owners themselves
2) car and fuel charges do not take into account the real cost of motoring - if you built in the cost of motorways, for example, into the cost of a car they would be unaffordable
car owners who argue against congestion charges are, arguably, conceited, arrogant, hypocritical and short-sighted
they fill their lives with unneccessary journeys in empty vehicles and when they get stuck in a jam, they fail to realise that their own car is in fact part of the problem
someone should suggest asthma charging - make car owners pay for schoolkids inhalers - that would put the cat amongst the pigeons
you only have to look at the US to see how this automotive nightmare has shaped their society - enormous cars, miles of tarmac, dead towns and wars fought over cheap fuel
i'm taking the bus.
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Brian McCrow
- Posts: 224
- Joined: 16 Sep 2003, 12:11
- Location: Portobello
For years I've believed that public transport should be free and city parking exorbitantly high with fierce traffic wardens. The roads should be given over to the buses/trams with cars having to fight for space i.e. true bus lanes.
The buses and trams can then hit their schedules easily.
There should be excellent Park & Ride facilities around the City.
This makes it easy to use Public transport, saves on high capital investment and ongoing operating costs and can become an easily regulated transport system i.e. if too many cars keep using the City Centre just put up the parking charges.
If there are concerns about through traffic using the City Centre then the bypass needs to be upgraded. I drive on it most days going to Milngavie and it's very slow. Make it faster without roundabouts, make it more difficult to drive through town with proper bus lanes etc and car drivers will soon switch onto the bypass.
Free transport would be excellent for a City with so many tourists.
I've seen an example of this in Denver, Colorado, where in the City Centre free buses run over a 1 mile strip covering the shopping malls, pubs and restaurants. There is no delay when you get on the bus as the driver doesn't have to collect fares.
This could be implemented tomorrow at very little cost compared to the congestion charging scheme.
The buses and trams can then hit their schedules easily.
There should be excellent Park & Ride facilities around the City.
This makes it easy to use Public transport, saves on high capital investment and ongoing operating costs and can become an easily regulated transport system i.e. if too many cars keep using the City Centre just put up the parking charges.
If there are concerns about through traffic using the City Centre then the bypass needs to be upgraded. I drive on it most days going to Milngavie and it's very slow. Make it faster without roundabouts, make it more difficult to drive through town with proper bus lanes etc and car drivers will soon switch onto the bypass.
Free transport would be excellent for a City with so many tourists.
I've seen an example of this in Denver, Colorado, where in the City Centre free buses run over a 1 mile strip covering the shopping malls, pubs and restaurants. There is no delay when you get on the bus as the driver doesn't have to collect fares.
This could be implemented tomorrow at very little cost compared to the congestion charging scheme.
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Surrealist
Wahey!!! I love Marya already.
I will post a reply sometime soon - but I have to go now as :
a) mrs surrealist is due her cup of tea
b) i have to whine at the tv for half an hour - it's that urban gardener chap on C4 who i absolutely loathe - you know the one who concretes over anything remotely green
nice one marya - you'll keep
I will post a reply sometime soon - but I have to go now as :
a) mrs surrealist is due her cup of tea
b) i have to whine at the tv for half an hour - it's that urban gardener chap on C4 who i absolutely loathe - you know the one who concretes over anything remotely green
nice one marya - you'll keep
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Guest
OK, let's be nice - I really don't want to have to put on my moderator hat again. 
Lots of interesting points raised already. My own view is that congestion charging in itself is a good thing. Anything that encourages people to leave their cars at home and use public transport has to be good for everyone. The trouble is that there are lots of other issues that are muddying the water. A lot of people have a problem with where the cordons are drawn, about who is paying and who is exempt, about what the revenue will be used for. And a lot of people just can't face the thought of having to pay out more money and will employ any excuse, however spurious, to avoid doing so.
As Marya points out, the big surprise in London was how effective congestion charging was at reducing traffic and therefore revenue projections were wide of the mark. This very point was raised at a recent LDC meeting and we were assured that revenue projections for Edinburgh were conservative and took London's experience into account.
I don't know that trams are the answer but I do know that good public transport costs huge amounts of money and needs to be subsidised. The inescapable truth is that if we want good public services - transport, health, education - we have to pay for them, one way or another. Personally, I would prefer that politicians were a bit more honest about this, but raising tax rates isn't a vote winner.
So, let's forget the petty detail and look at the bigger picture. Congestion charging will undoubtedly reduce congestion. It will also raise money that can be used to improve the public transport infrastructure. It may not be perfect but it's a huge step in the right direction. Do you REALLY want to vote against this? Really? Do me a favour - try driving across the city during rush hour (give yourself plenty of time to complete this task) and then imagine how much worse it is going to be in 10 year's time unless we make radical changes right now. We can't afford to go down this road of madness any longer. We are fatally obsessed with the motor car and we need help to break the addiction.
Having said all that, my job is about to be relocated to Sighthill. Until now I have been able to cycle, or jump on the X26. I still have public transport options but the journey times are horrendous. The car is lying outside. I'm tempted. Help me someone!
Lots of interesting points raised already. My own view is that congestion charging in itself is a good thing. Anything that encourages people to leave their cars at home and use public transport has to be good for everyone. The trouble is that there are lots of other issues that are muddying the water. A lot of people have a problem with where the cordons are drawn, about who is paying and who is exempt, about what the revenue will be used for. And a lot of people just can't face the thought of having to pay out more money and will employ any excuse, however spurious, to avoid doing so.
As Marya points out, the big surprise in London was how effective congestion charging was at reducing traffic and therefore revenue projections were wide of the mark. This very point was raised at a recent LDC meeting and we were assured that revenue projections for Edinburgh were conservative and took London's experience into account.
I don't know that trams are the answer but I do know that good public transport costs huge amounts of money and needs to be subsidised. The inescapable truth is that if we want good public services - transport, health, education - we have to pay for them, one way or another. Personally, I would prefer that politicians were a bit more honest about this, but raising tax rates isn't a vote winner.
So, let's forget the petty detail and look at the bigger picture. Congestion charging will undoubtedly reduce congestion. It will also raise money that can be used to improve the public transport infrastructure. It may not be perfect but it's a huge step in the right direction. Do you REALLY want to vote against this? Really? Do me a favour - try driving across the city during rush hour (give yourself plenty of time to complete this task) and then imagine how much worse it is going to be in 10 year's time unless we make radical changes right now. We can't afford to go down this road of madness any longer. We are fatally obsessed with the motor car and we need help to break the addiction.
Having said all that, my job is about to be relocated to Sighthill. Until now I have been able to cycle, or jump on the X26. I still have public transport options but the journey times are horrendous. The car is lying outside. I'm tempted. Help me someone!
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Guest
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Guest
Truth is I was never a biker, just a poseur. However, I have been giving some serious thought to an electric scooter. Easy to maintain, cheap to run, free to park, environmentally-friendly - what more could you ask for in personal transport? I haven't checked but I would hope that electrically powered vehicles would be exempt from congestion charging.
http://www.granbyscooters.co.uk/italvel_day.htm
http://www.granbyscooters.co.uk/italvel_day.htm
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Guest
With 45 votes in so far it's still neck and neck. We expected this one to go close, with plenty of strong feeling on either side, and so it is proving.
We still haven't heard anything from those who oppose the charge in the way of an alternative. Let's hear your proposals to solve the city's traffic problems.
More debate! More votes!
We still haven't heard anything from those who oppose the charge in the way of an alternative. Let's hear your proposals to solve the city's traffic problems.
More debate! More votes!
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Brian McCrow
- Posts: 224
- Joined: 16 Sep 2003, 12:11
- Location: Portobello
I haven't voted on this one because i'm not entirely sure where i stand on it. In principle I'm all for anything that cuts down pollution, but i've had the feeling all along that Edinburgh hasn't really planned this properly and so it'll probably just be total chaos. Hopefully congestion charging will cut down the amount of traffic...but will public transport increase and improve?
The Edinburgh tram system seems to me to be someone's idea of a big joke, and not because i'm against trams per se - I travelled into Manchester every day when the tram system there first opened, and then moved to sheffield in time to use the one there, which was actually very convenient except for all the car accidents caused by the rails. But Edinburgh's seems to only serve a handful of people, completely ignores most of the city, and seems unlikely to attract many passengers.
But at the moment we manage without a car, so it's easy from this position to be smug and be all in favour of charging. If we had a car we'd probably feel very differently!
Hm...but what we should do is have superstore charging, so anyone wanting to go to the new superstore has to pay a toll to porty residents for the subsidising of our local shops and community...
The Edinburgh tram system seems to me to be someone's idea of a big joke, and not because i'm against trams per se - I travelled into Manchester every day when the tram system there first opened, and then moved to sheffield in time to use the one there, which was actually very convenient except for all the car accidents caused by the rails. But Edinburgh's seems to only serve a handful of people, completely ignores most of the city, and seems unlikely to attract many passengers.
But at the moment we manage without a car, so it's easy from this position to be smug and be all in favour of charging. If we had a car we'd probably feel very differently!
Hm...but what we should do is have superstore charging, so anyone wanting to go to the new superstore has to pay a toll to porty residents for the subsidising of our local shops and community...
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Brian McCrow
- Posts: 224
- Joined: 16 Sep 2003, 12:11
- Location: Portobello
An increase in parking charges could fund free transport and my suggested scheme would be very cheap to implement. There would be savings within the bus system as they wouldn't need to have people counting the fares etc. Bus timetables would be improved as the drivers won't be held up collecting fares.
It is a positive scheme i.e. people are encouraged to travel on public transport, people outside of the city are encouraged to park & ride.
The congestion charging scheme is a negative charge i.e. it punishes behaviour. This makes people resentful and perhaps determined to beat the system. The capital costs are high and I should imagine the operational costs and frictions will be high.
I like SIMPLE systems.
It is a positive scheme i.e. people are encouraged to travel on public transport, people outside of the city are encouraged to park & ride.
The congestion charging scheme is a negative charge i.e. it punishes behaviour. This makes people resentful and perhaps determined to beat the system. The capital costs are high and I should imagine the operational costs and frictions will be high.
I like SIMPLE systems.
against congestion charges
I was in favour of c charges, because I hate all the traffic on our roads, but have been persuaded against them - because they will particularly punish people who have to use their car either to get to work or for work (and therefore have to drive to work) and people who work shifts e.g. bus drivers, nurses, people who work in residential homes and finish work at 10pm or later, when its not so safe to travel or there aren't so many buses; people who have had to move out of Edinburgh to buy or rent a cheaper place to live, because of the v high cost of living here.
I have also been told that if public transport is improved people actually choose that as an alternative eg a lot of people choose to travel into Edinburgh from Porty by bus because the no 26 is fairly frequent.
One suggestion I have for taking traffic off the roads is simple but dramatic (and socialist ie in the common good) - renationalise the railways, & buses, thus making these non profit making (and unified ie not a whole lot of companies competing against each other or not joined up) and make it very cheap for freight to be transported by rail. If you want proof of the nos of huge lorries etc on our roads (big lorries/juggernauts = lots more pollution) stand by HL roundabout for ten minutes - an hour and you will see the huge vehicles regularly going around that roundabout - to Leith or on to the Bypass. These transport goods from cars to everything else. If we could reduce this type of traffic to a quarter of what it is (ie probably more local lorries picking stuff up from delivery points at railway stations or nearby to take to local shops) surely that would help a great deal.
Also if we made travel by bus just on one bus company that is run for the public good, all profits being reinvested into the service, and using DIRECT TAXATION of the very wealthy - taking income tax of the very rich up to the level it was under Thatcher - to subsidise improvements in rail and bus infrastructure, we could easily have a very fine public transport system, which people would choose in favour of traffic jams, parking charges, stress of driving etc.
There are lots of other arguments that have been made against congestion charges along these lines, and I can't remember them all. I don't drive altho get occasional lifts - and I don't like pollution, traffic accidents etc but I don't think Congestion Charges is the best way to raise money to invest in public services - or deter car drivers.
For instance, a bus driver for LRT told me he drove here from Fife because LRT is a better employer than some of the other bus companies - he is in favour of renationalising all public transport including making LRT a direct public service again and not having to compete with private bus companies. He would be punished by congestion charges.
A nurse working on quite a low wage, as most public sector staff are, having to use her or his car to get to work, often early in the morning or very late at night, will be punished by c charges (plus the exorbitant parking charges at the RIE including for staff). A lot of public sector workers live in Midlothian, W Lothian, Fife, small villages in E Lothian etc, because it is cheaper, and drive to work here. They will be punished by C Charges.
Everything is related - we have an overheated housing market particularly in Edinburgh with ridiculous prices - very rich people with too much money are investing their £££ in flats and houses to get a 'good return' and a better one than they can get on the stocks and shares market at the moment. But this is pushing house prices up to levels where people have to move away from Edinburgh to get a decent place to live. Someone suggested we should tax people higher who do this. I suggest we should just raise Income Tax over a certain (high) threshold up to the level that Thatcher taxed the v rich at (until she eventually put it down and TB has kept it down)....these people not only have far too much money but are inflating our house prices so people can't afford a roof over their head, move out of town and drive in to do essential jobs, often in public services. Yet wages don't go up in line with house prices (or even to match the increase in the C Tax)
So I think Congestion Charging is on balance a mistake. Its a short term fix that will actually be detrimental to lower paid people and it is an attempt to raise money for public transport through indirect taxation, particularly hurting lower paid/average waged people rather than raising money for public services through raising Income Tax on those who can afford to pay more to subsidise public services.
My suggestion: Renationalise rail and bus transport and increase direct taxation on the very wealthy (not sure what level this should be set at but at least on people earning £100,000 plus - possibly £50,000 plus - what do people think? and use this increased taxation to subsidise public transport, giving freight huge discounts on rail to take the big lorries off our roads...... Carla
I have also been told that if public transport is improved people actually choose that as an alternative eg a lot of people choose to travel into Edinburgh from Porty by bus because the no 26 is fairly frequent.
One suggestion I have for taking traffic off the roads is simple but dramatic (and socialist ie in the common good) - renationalise the railways, & buses, thus making these non profit making (and unified ie not a whole lot of companies competing against each other or not joined up) and make it very cheap for freight to be transported by rail. If you want proof of the nos of huge lorries etc on our roads (big lorries/juggernauts = lots more pollution) stand by HL roundabout for ten minutes - an hour and you will see the huge vehicles regularly going around that roundabout - to Leith or on to the Bypass. These transport goods from cars to everything else. If we could reduce this type of traffic to a quarter of what it is (ie probably more local lorries picking stuff up from delivery points at railway stations or nearby to take to local shops) surely that would help a great deal.
Also if we made travel by bus just on one bus company that is run for the public good, all profits being reinvested into the service, and using DIRECT TAXATION of the very wealthy - taking income tax of the very rich up to the level it was under Thatcher - to subsidise improvements in rail and bus infrastructure, we could easily have a very fine public transport system, which people would choose in favour of traffic jams, parking charges, stress of driving etc.
There are lots of other arguments that have been made against congestion charges along these lines, and I can't remember them all. I don't drive altho get occasional lifts - and I don't like pollution, traffic accidents etc but I don't think Congestion Charges is the best way to raise money to invest in public services - or deter car drivers.
For instance, a bus driver for LRT told me he drove here from Fife because LRT is a better employer than some of the other bus companies - he is in favour of renationalising all public transport including making LRT a direct public service again and not having to compete with private bus companies. He would be punished by congestion charges.
A nurse working on quite a low wage, as most public sector staff are, having to use her or his car to get to work, often early in the morning or very late at night, will be punished by c charges (plus the exorbitant parking charges at the RIE including for staff). A lot of public sector workers live in Midlothian, W Lothian, Fife, small villages in E Lothian etc, because it is cheaper, and drive to work here. They will be punished by C Charges.
Everything is related - we have an overheated housing market particularly in Edinburgh with ridiculous prices - very rich people with too much money are investing their £££ in flats and houses to get a 'good return' and a better one than they can get on the stocks and shares market at the moment. But this is pushing house prices up to levels where people have to move away from Edinburgh to get a decent place to live. Someone suggested we should tax people higher who do this. I suggest we should just raise Income Tax over a certain (high) threshold up to the level that Thatcher taxed the v rich at (until she eventually put it down and TB has kept it down)....these people not only have far too much money but are inflating our house prices so people can't afford a roof over their head, move out of town and drive in to do essential jobs, often in public services. Yet wages don't go up in line with house prices (or even to match the increase in the C Tax)
So I think Congestion Charging is on balance a mistake. Its a short term fix that will actually be detrimental to lower paid people and it is an attempt to raise money for public transport through indirect taxation, particularly hurting lower paid/average waged people rather than raising money for public services through raising Income Tax on those who can afford to pay more to subsidise public services.
My suggestion: Renationalise rail and bus transport and increase direct taxation on the very wealthy (not sure what level this should be set at but at least on people earning £100,000 plus - possibly £50,000 plus - what do people think? and use this increased taxation to subsidise public transport, giving freight huge discounts on rail to take the big lorries off our roads...... Carla
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Guest
Carla, I think what may surprise you is that many people outwith the SSP would agree with you on renationalising public services and a fairer form of taxation. We agree on principle BUT we also live in the real world and we can't see such sweeping changes occurring in the forseeable future.
What we can see, however, is a scheme that will discourage needless car journeys and encourage people to use public transport. It's easy to pick holes, it's far from perfect, but on balance it is much better than what we have and we need to act NOW. I don't disagree with the very valid points you make about penalising those on low incomes. Why not support congestion charging AND campaign for concessions for the low paid?
What we can see, however, is a scheme that will discourage needless car journeys and encourage people to use public transport. It's easy to pick holes, it's far from perfect, but on balance it is much better than what we have and we need to act NOW. I don't disagree with the very valid points you make about penalising those on low incomes. Why not support congestion charging AND campaign for concessions for the low paid?
How?
Well Bob, thanks for your reply - I agree a lot of people would agree renationalising transport and a fairer taxation system is a good option - especially after the horrific train disasters we have had and the increase in indirect as opposed to direct (Income) taxation. However, I don't agree it is unrealistic to campaign for these options. My feeling is people are pretty sick of money being spent on war and privatisation of public services (Privatisation of the Royal Infirmary through PPP and after 30 or so years we still don't own it?!) and not on directly provided public services like public transport paid for out of taxing the wealthy, who can well afford to pay more.
and passing by HL roundabout quite regularly makes for horrifying viewing of the huge transporters, juggernauts etc carrying our food, furniture, cars, fridges, etc etc everywhere...if you don't go by this roundabout often, take a walk along to Seafield Road East and stand there for 10 minutes - at any time of the day and you will see what I mean. I don't know what the figures for accidents involving lorries are - but I would think it must have got higher since privatisation of the railways - anyone know what the figures for freight being carried by lorry/juggernaut is now in comparison to pre thatcher privatisation of the railways? or accident rates since then involving lorries?
How would you build in concessions for low/average paid workers, so as not to penalise us or public sector workers or workers who do shifts e.g. bus, train, hotel, hospital, nursing home etc workers ? there are so many of us. how would this work - any ideas? It would be good to hear them from people. You see it might just be more realistic to campaign for a long term solution rather than a short term bandage on the problem which will punish those not well off . Because concessions would end up, if fair, being a concession for the vast majority of people who don't earn above the average skilled worker's wage of £25,000 - many of us earn below, and in many cases well below, that. So if the majority get a concession, which I would be in favour of as being fair, then you might as well target the minority - the well off - who can afford to pay these Cong Charges, in which case Income Tax is the fairest and most direct way to do this..... rather than taxing car journeys...and spend this on improving public transport - encouraging more people to travel on this and leave their cars at home. This would also save on a very costly administration of Congestion Charges with a complex concessions system. Taking the vast majority of freight vehicles off the road would also make it a lot safer - so people might prefer to use bicycles and walk. Better public transport generally will encourage people to leave their cars at home, hence making it safer, healthier and preferable to walk or cycle if you can, or take the bus or train if you can't. What about having more railway stations and more frequent trains on local railway lines. I believe the train from Waverly to Brunstane takes about 9 mins but is only every 15 mins and if one gets cancelled that is a big wait. If we had a stop in Portobello that would really encourage people to use the railways to get into town. I am not a transport expert, but I do use public transport - I know quite a lot of buses still only run every 15 minutes during rush hour - this is not v reliable for getting about to work, nurseries, schools, etc. If we improve this we can encourage more people to rely on buses to get to essential destinations- but its how we pay for this that we are quibbling about and I don't think taxing people for getting to their work,etc, when public transport still needs to be improved, is the answer - - Carla
and passing by HL roundabout quite regularly makes for horrifying viewing of the huge transporters, juggernauts etc carrying our food, furniture, cars, fridges, etc etc everywhere...if you don't go by this roundabout often, take a walk along to Seafield Road East and stand there for 10 minutes - at any time of the day and you will see what I mean. I don't know what the figures for accidents involving lorries are - but I would think it must have got higher since privatisation of the railways - anyone know what the figures for freight being carried by lorry/juggernaut is now in comparison to pre thatcher privatisation of the railways? or accident rates since then involving lorries?
How would you build in concessions for low/average paid workers, so as not to penalise us or public sector workers or workers who do shifts e.g. bus, train, hotel, hospital, nursing home etc workers ? there are so many of us. how would this work - any ideas? It would be good to hear them from people. You see it might just be more realistic to campaign for a long term solution rather than a short term bandage on the problem which will punish those not well off . Because concessions would end up, if fair, being a concession for the vast majority of people who don't earn above the average skilled worker's wage of £25,000 - many of us earn below, and in many cases well below, that. So if the majority get a concession, which I would be in favour of as being fair, then you might as well target the minority - the well off - who can afford to pay these Cong Charges, in which case Income Tax is the fairest and most direct way to do this..... rather than taxing car journeys...and spend this on improving public transport - encouraging more people to travel on this and leave their cars at home. This would also save on a very costly administration of Congestion Charges with a complex concessions system. Taking the vast majority of freight vehicles off the road would also make it a lot safer - so people might prefer to use bicycles and walk. Better public transport generally will encourage people to leave their cars at home, hence making it safer, healthier and preferable to walk or cycle if you can, or take the bus or train if you can't. What about having more railway stations and more frequent trains on local railway lines. I believe the train from Waverly to Brunstane takes about 9 mins but is only every 15 mins and if one gets cancelled that is a big wait. If we had a stop in Portobello that would really encourage people to use the railways to get into town. I am not a transport expert, but I do use public transport - I know quite a lot of buses still only run every 15 minutes during rush hour - this is not v reliable for getting about to work, nurseries, schools, etc. If we improve this we can encourage more people to rely on buses to get to essential destinations- but its how we pay for this that we are quibbling about and I don't think taxing people for getting to their work,etc, when public transport still needs to be improved, is the answer - - Carla
Congestion Charging
I think that Edinburgh Council needs to improve public transport before they introduce congestion charging. I know there is a park and ride just opened at Newcraighall and I assume there will be one at Edinburgh Park in time. The Lothian buses service is all well and good, but only reaches so far. There needs to be more, better interface points for people who are commuting from outwith the city bypass as it is not practical for everybody to use public transport all the time.
I personally don't take my car when going into town other than for work, but I quite often drive through town to avoid the bypass!
Where's the logic in that I hear you ask?
When I was at Heriot Watt Uni the quickest way to get there form Porty was along Princess Street, the West approach Road and out Calder Road, as the bypass is 4 miles further and moves at about 7MPH in rush hour!!
David Begg and subsequent council transport officers seem to have one aim: Edinburgh with no cars. Unfortunately they are too focussed on this, without providing alternatives which are as convenient.
Trams- What happens when the routes need to change?
Bus Park & Ride - Where are they? Bath has great, cheap, park & ride
Congestion charging - Is it to raise revenue or reduce traffic, surely if CC was effective, it would only raise a very small amount of cash, which may cover it's costs, but would not raise enough revenue to improve public transport. But then I guess that's why the car haters want to introduce it before providing alternative means.
Car drivers already pay tax than any other consumer group in this country, if everyone stopped using cars, the government would lose a huge amount of tax revenue, the same is true of smolers. The treasury don't want people to stop smoking or driving, or there'd be an even bigger deficit in public funding!
Speed Bumps - These are springing up all over the city, hindering emergency vehicles, increasing noise and pollution as cars slow and acelerate. Quite often the speed limit is still 30MPH, why not just reduce it to 20, because I know a lot of people will accelerate to 30 in between the bumps anyway! I know I could actually do more than 30 in between bumps to keep my average speed around tbne limit if I was so inclined,m but if the limit was 20 I'd be inclined to travel a lot slower.
Hope that all makes sense, a bit of a baptism of fire as my first post.
Cheers
Jamie
I personally don't take my car when going into town other than for work, but I quite often drive through town to avoid the bypass!
Where's the logic in that I hear you ask?
When I was at Heriot Watt Uni the quickest way to get there form Porty was along Princess Street, the West approach Road and out Calder Road, as the bypass is 4 miles further and moves at about 7MPH in rush hour!!
David Begg and subsequent council transport officers seem to have one aim: Edinburgh with no cars. Unfortunately they are too focussed on this, without providing alternatives which are as convenient.
Trams- What happens when the routes need to change?
Bus Park & Ride - Where are they? Bath has great, cheap, park & ride
Congestion charging - Is it to raise revenue or reduce traffic, surely if CC was effective, it would only raise a very small amount of cash, which may cover it's costs, but would not raise enough revenue to improve public transport. But then I guess that's why the car haters want to introduce it before providing alternative means.
Car drivers already pay tax than any other consumer group in this country, if everyone stopped using cars, the government would lose a huge amount of tax revenue, the same is true of smolers. The treasury don't want people to stop smoking or driving, or there'd be an even bigger deficit in public funding!
Speed Bumps - These are springing up all over the city, hindering emergency vehicles, increasing noise and pollution as cars slow and acelerate. Quite often the speed limit is still 30MPH, why not just reduce it to 20, because I know a lot of people will accelerate to 30 in between the bumps anyway! I know I could actually do more than 30 in between bumps to keep my average speed around tbne limit if I was so inclined,m but if the limit was 20 I'd be inclined to travel a lot slower.
Hope that all makes sense, a bit of a baptism of fire as my first post.
Cheers
Jamie
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administrator
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poll result
The Congestion Charging poll has now closed, but the debate goes on. With 107 votes cast, the result is as follows:
For - 44
Against - 62
Don't Know - 1
We expected the voting to be close and for a long time it was neck and neck, with the 'against' vote just gaining ground towards the end.
Thanks to everyone who participated. New poll coming soon.
For - 44
Against - 62
Don't Know - 1
We expected the voting to be close and for a long time it was neck and neck, with the 'against' vote just gaining ground towards the end.
Thanks to everyone who participated. New poll coming soon.
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administrator
- [admin]
- Posts: 208
- Joined: 11 Nov 2002, 22:40
The following message by ifstar has been moved to maintain thread continuity.
Could all forum users please note that the board is now spread over 5 pages.
Could all forum users please note that the board is now spread over 5 pages.
Is the congestion in Edinburgh really that bad to warrant these? If i go to the gym (Marco's near Fountainbridge) i can get to it from Macmerry where i work in under 45 mins without speeding if i leave work at 5pm. Ok certain parts of the city will be busier than others but i don't think there is any need to introduce these charges as its normal for a large city to be quite busy between 8/9.30am and 4.30/6pm. Other that these times is Edinburgh really that bad?
I know this is a portobello forum but i am sure it will have relevant impact to most people here.