Wi-fi in Portobello

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 29 Jul 2006, 08:26

Is there support for Wi-fi in Portobello? It is a suggestion I have put to the new owners of Kitcheners Deli. Is this a facility you would use? Would it enhance the deli's reputation? Opinions please?

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 29 Jul 2006, 09:19

I wouldn't use it , but it seems to be de rigeur in fashionable circles these days to go out for a coffee, taking your lap top along. You can then sit there for hours on end, your coffee growing cold while you look even cooler

IMHO this behaviour ranks alongside folk who meet up for a coffee and a chat and then proceed to interrupt every sentence to read or answer a text on their mobile phones

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 29 Jul 2006, 11:05

I suggested to Kitcheners that they start a home delivery service but have had no luck yet.

I'd like WiFi on the beach outside The Place. They could disguise an ariel as a windsock.

mr magnolia · Post by **mr magnolia** » 29 Jul 2006, 22:12

er...

I seem to get mine from an unknown neighbour, whether I want it or not!

faster than my own landline, too.

Don't want to ruin a good coffee by bothering with it in a coffee house tho'

impossiblevoices · Post by **impossiblevoices** » 29 Jul 2006, 22:44

Wi-fi is great fun. We have a secure network here at home. It has to be secure though, so no neighbours can hijack it Mr Mag...!

I think that Wi-Fi would be another reason for people to stop off at kitcheners. You know, grab a quick coffee and check your emails, that sort of thing.

To go slightly off topic, does anyone else use XBox media centre via their wireless connection to stream content on the pc to tv/amp/surround sound in other rooms of the house? I have just recently set mine up and it rocks! Sod the games, all my music can be streamed into my front room now - fantastic!

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 30 Jul 2006, 16:54

mr magnolia wrote:er...

I seem to get mine from an unknown neighbour, whether I want it or not!

faster than my own landline, too.

Don't want to ruin a good coffee by bothering with it in a coffee house tho'

Watch out :

"My neighbours are stealing my wireless internet access. I could encrypt it or alternately I could have fun."

http://www.ex-parrot.com/~pete/upside-down-ternet.html

Scroll down the page for some hilarious pictures!

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 30 Jul 2006, 20:26

I read that as "Wifie in Portobello".

Sorry, just thought I'd share that with you.......

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jul 2006, 08:51

Wife sharing? I think you're looking for another forum altogether.

Cleopas · Post by **Cleopas** » 31 Jul 2006, 18:54

Being a numptie, can someone please tell me what WiFi is??? I know it's not the wee wummin across the road ... but I am at a loss to understand.

HEEEEELLLPPPPP! and thank you.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 31 Jul 2006, 19:42

Wireless networking for computers.

You have a special card with an antenna built in that you put in your pc or laptop which gets its data (like stuff off the internet) over the air as opposed to having to use a wire - hence "wire-less".

It's a bit like walkie-talkies but in computer-speak. What I mentioned above is the receiver - you also need somewhere to get your data from - which could be a special box you can buy out of PC World which connects to your internet wire, or (more complicated) you could have a laptop which not only can be wireless at home but can connect to a free, paid or stolen service in places like airports, hotels, or maybe your neighbour has one of those special boxes which isn't set up right. (You need to give it a special code so that transmissions are encrypted)

A place where you can take your laptop too and get wireless internet access is called a hotspot.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jul 2006, 19:54

In theory, all Kitcheners would need to provide is an unencrypted wireless router and a broadband connection which would cost them next to nothing. You order your cappucino, start up your laptop (or similar device) and it finds the connection automatically.

However, if you are offering this service in commercial premises then there may be one or two more hoops to jump through and you might need something like BT Openzone, although I'm not sure why. Maybe someone else knows more about this?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jul 2006, 21:03

I read a bit more about the wi-fi revolution here.

So do places like McDonalds charge for this facility? Or is it offered as a free service? Perhaps naively, I had assumed that businesses were offering free internet access as a service to their customers but the more I read about it, the more it seems to be about making money.

My connection isn't encrypted and I really don't mind if you want to stand in my street and take advantage of this. It would be nice, however, if you were prepared to offer reciprocal arrangements. Theoretically, if enough of us did this, wouldn't we have seamless Porty-wide wi-fi access?

Post by **wangi** » 31 Jul 2006, 21:24

Bob Jefferson wrote:My connection isn't encrypted and I really don't mind if you want to stand in my street and take advantage of this. It would be nice, however, if you were prepared to offer reciprocal arrangements. Theoretically, if enough of us did this, wouldn't we have seamless Porty-wide wi-fi access?

Bob, what you've got to think about is illegal content - stuff you'd rather not think about... With an unencrypted link people can access all sorts via you connection, and when the feds come calling it'll be you they're after...

ali · Post by **ali** » 31 Jul 2006, 21:30

Bob Jefferson wrote:Theoretically, if enough of us did this, wouldn't we have seamless Porty-wide wi-fi access?

I'm sure I read in the paper a while back that all major cities will be wi-fi enabled soon so that you can in theory log on anywhere.
don't know if it will be free tho.

more info here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4351400.stm

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jul 2006, 21:37

don't know if it will be free tho.

Probably not according to this, from the link I provided earlier:

Users of the new city-wide wi-fi networks will be required to pay access charges to an account provider, such as BT Openzone or T-Mobile.

The revenues will be shared between the owners of the street furniture on which the equipment is installed (usually local councils), wi-fi hotspot suppliers and the internet service providers.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jul 2006, 21:41

wangi wrote:With an unencrypted link people can access all sorts via you connection, and when the feds come calling it'll be you they're after...

That's certainly an issue. Let me reconsider my earlier offer.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 31 Jul 2006, 21:58

wangi wrote:
Bob Jefferson wrote:My connection isn't encrypted and I really don't mind if you want to stand in my street and take advantage of this. It would be nice, however, if you were prepared to offer reciprocal arrangements. Theoretically, if enough of us did this, wouldn't we have seamless Porty-wide wi-fi access?
Bob, what you've got to think about is illegal content - stuff you'd rather not think about... With an unencrypted link people can access all sorts via you connection, and when the feds come calling it'll be you they're after...

I'd be interested to know who the burden of proof was on for that.

Also, wouldn't they be able to map to a specific card where the data arrived?

I wonder if there is precedent here - it strikes me as scaremongering given how many people could benefit from free Wifi - and similar to saying that you shouldn't manufacture and sell hammers because they might be used to crack open heads with.

This must have been one of the first worries and questions that came up when hotspots became real.

Post by **wangi** » 31 Jul 2006, 22:04

Put it like this, If I was wanting to look at stuff I'd rather not be associated with it'd be easy as anything to do it via an unsecured wifi connection somewhere... It would also be near on impossible to trace.

And even if the owner of the wifi connection didn't get the full brunt of the law, they'd certainly get a lot of heavy hassle...

Also, wouldn't they be able to map to a specific card where the data arrived?

Well whatever logs the site keeps it'll include the IP address, and since wireless routers normally NAT the connection to a single dynamic or static IP how can you tell who it was?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 31 Jul 2006, 22:12

wangi wrote:Put it like this, If I was wanting to look at stuff I'd rather not be associated with it'd be easy as anything to do it via an unsecured wifi connection somewhere... It would also be near on impossible to trace.

And even if the owner of the wifi connection didn't get the full brunt of the law, they'd certainly get a lot of heavy hassle...

Yes, they would get hassle even though they were innocent.

Libraries and internet cafes must have been through this right from the start - the wireless bit is a bit of a red herring.

Is this hypothetical? Has this happened yet? We must be painting clumsy strokes in a debate which, although probably ongoing, has become refined.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 31 Jul 2006, 22:15

Here's what someone says that US law says about this :

> I've been giving a lot of thought to the problem of free hotspot owners
> being potentially victimized and possibly held responsible for the
> criminal or malicious acts of anonymous users. Unlike in the ISP world,
> where the ISP itself has some sort of identification information for its
> users (even if it must check IP address records to verify who was doing
> what when), free hotspots like those in New York City parks and in the
> many establishments offering free Wi-Fi as a sales tool have no way of
> identifying miscreants.

There is plenty of precedent regarding publically available services with
anonymous users. Just as the phone company is not held liable for someone
using a pay phone to commit crimes, a wireless hotspot owner is not
responsible for illegal use of a hotspot unless / until he / she is
informed of such activity.

Even then civil liability only comes as a result of a direct warning that
someone is performing illegal acts and failure of the hotspot
administrator to stop those acts will result in damages. Criminal
liability comes only if the hotspot admin can be shown to be
participating or protecting those committing the illegal acts.

This is a simplification, but this is essentially what I was told when I
spoke with two different lawyers about this very same issue a couple of
years ago before I set up wireless in Tompkins Square Park.

this came from here :

http://www.freenetworks.org/pipermail/n ... 07464.html

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 31 Jul 2006, 22:20

Here's another can of worms wangi - going by the above, you could become a hotspot admin in order to pose as one of your own anonymous users!

Post by **wangi** » 31 Jul 2006, 22:21

Dadaist wrote:Here's what someone says that US law says about this

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jul 2006, 22:24

Libraries, airports etc have nanny software to prevent people accessing illegal stuff. The Community Centre has wi-fi. I discovered today that its range doesn't cover the local history section of the Library, which is about half way back, but I'm told it does work in the upstairs room. I wonder if some of the residents of Adelphi Grove are benefitting from a free connection?

I like this quote from an article in the Scotsman a few years ago:

Nobody thinks it wrong to use light spilling from a window to read a newspaper. What we do is no different: weâ€™re just using waste radio signals that spill through the walls.

Also, have a look at www.warchalking.org.uk

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 31 Jul 2006, 22:51

wangi wrote:
Dadaist wrote:Here's what someone says that US law says about this

Did you read it? What do you think?

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 31 Jul 2006, 23:02

naively, I had assumed that businesses were offering free internet access as a service to their customers but the more I read about it, the more it seems to be about making money.

Ha! Very naive of you, Bob.

Cleopas · Post by **Cleopas** » 31 Jul 2006, 23:06

My computer nerd who does all that stuff for me will bring me up to speed if and when I need it. I'll assume until he tells me differently, it's not for me!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jul 2006, 23:11

Yeah, turns out that Openzone is just another bill. Vouchers, pay as you go (20p per minute!) or a choice of usage-based subscription levels.

I'll pass.

Post by **wangi** » 31 Jul 2006, 23:16

Dadaist wrote:Did you read it? What do you think?

Yeah, just another opinion in among many... I'd rather I wasn't the test case... And the more secure my 'net is, the more secure my computers on it are

So, who's going to warchalk Portobello?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jul 2006, 23:33

I couldn't possibly condone such actions.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Aug 2006, 02:29

i'm over in the US as I type and the laptop wi-fi pheneomenon is being embraced by old and young, especially in coffee shops. As Marya alludes it appears to be a lonely pursuit.

There are differences between the coffee shops here and Kitcheners: there is much more space here, there are fewer wobbly tables, whatever coffee one requests, latte, capuccino, dry capuccino and so on, one gets. Large coffees come in large cups. Goods that are ordered are generally delivered to the people who ordered them and not to the people who are sitting at the next table. IMHO Kitcheners has got to get the basics of customer service right before they consider other less important matters. In terms of revenue; I don't think kitcheners want customers sitting thee for hours on end they want throughput. So i guess I'm saying no to KWI-FI, sorry Bob.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 01 Aug 2006, 08:08

I had some time to kill in Waterloo Place yesterday so I stopped off at Howie's for a coffee. About 10 minutes later the capuccino arrives in a very small cup. Since half of it is made up of froth, I'm left with about two mouthfuls of luke warm liquid for Â£1:85. I complained and they gave me a fresh cup which was at least hot this time, and with (wait for this) a complimentary chocolate mint! I almost laughed.

impossiblevoices · Post by **impossiblevoices** » 01 Aug 2006, 08:11

A friend and I were recently talking about The Cloud

Now... these guys are the Daddy's when it comes to WiFi. As far as I know, they are the company that the UK government has selected to provide city wide WiFi. They already do Canary Warf, which is one of the UK's biggest wireless networks and I am sure that I saw something about them having won a contract to make the whole of Liverpool city centre WiFi enabled.

If you have a look on their site they have full case studies and also pages addressing security concerns. Along with Google, they are going to take over the world.

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 01 Aug 2006, 22:17

Porty wrote:dry capuccino

Froth only?