Veils

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 20 Oct 2006, 10:30

Jack Straw, whose father was a jew, which may or may not be relevant. has sparked off a debate regarding the wearing of the muslim veil in certain social or commercial situtations.

I'm not religious. I've never conversed with someone that is wearing a veil, indeed I don't think i have ever seen one in real life. However, I imagine that it would affect the initial exchange making it a bit awkward. I wouldn't be natural. I agree that people are entiltled to wear a veil if they so choose but i don'yt believe it is appropriate for say a teacher to wear a veil whilst teaching, which is just one example. What's your views?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 20 Oct 2006, 10:42

It's really difficult and controversial, isn't it!

I just don't know.

It covers so many difficult topics, from secularism vs religion, the role of the state, rights of individuals and groups, tradition and culture, and how different societies treat women....etc

Radicals on both sides can have wildly differing views - it's almost as if the veil/burkha has become a ping pong ball to be batted between various groups.

I'm unsure as to my opinion on the initial issue, let alone introducing the classroom environment into the debate - so my view is that I haven't got a clue which angle to start from.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 20 Oct 2006, 11:05

Me neither.

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 20 Oct 2006, 11:18

With DaDA on this one. I've never met a woman wearing a veil but imagine it's a barrier to communication, rather like approaching a teenager in a hoodie ( them not me )

Was it not thought to promte reunions inWW2 hence the song " Veil meet again,,,,"

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 20 Oct 2006, 11:26

Politics aside, I'm trying to imagine any of the headmistresses at the Scottish primary schools I know (better keep them anonymous here!) - notoriously strict about their teacher dress codes ie no jeans (too casual) no crop tops or mini skirts (too tarty) no sunglasses (they prevent eye contact), no stilletoes (impractical) and nothing dramatic, extreme or very unusual (distract the kids/ undermine teacher status), and number one dress code rule: no arguing back about the dress code! - adjusting to any new governmental guidelines..

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 20 Oct 2006, 11:32

I'm a bit on the fence with this one too. Don't like the idea of telling people what they can and can't wear, but something that is such a barrier as a full veil is hard to deal with from our Western society viewpoint.

I'm probably more of the opinion that, as it would only be polite for Western woman visiting a Muslim country to respect local customs by covering bare arms and legs, it should be viewed the same that Western custom is for the face to be visible when communicating.

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 20 Oct 2006, 11:37

bearcub wrote:
I'm probably more of the opinion that, as it would only be polite for Western woman visiting a Muslim country to respect local customs by covering bare arms and legs, it should be viewed the same that Western custom is for the face to be visible when communicating.

That was we were taught growing up, like it wasn't quite appropriate to go into a wee free church in a bikini or a mosque with shoes on etc.

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 20 Oct 2006, 12:27

From what I've read, I get the impession that the wearing of the veil is cultural not religious?

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 20 Oct 2006, 12:46

bearcub wrote:I'm probably more of the opinion that, as it would only be polite for Western woman visiting a Muslim country to respect local customs by covering bare arms and legs, it should be viewed the same that Western custom is for the face to be visible when communicating.

A difficult issue overall but my thoughts keep returning to the above sentiment.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 20 Oct 2006, 12:54

Poppy wrote:From what I've read, I get the impession that the wearing of the veil is cultural not religious?

Excellent point.

Black Mamba · Post by **Black Mamba** » 20 Oct 2006, 22:16

I agree with Porty, it's an excellent point. I'm not sure where I stand it's a mine field of a subject. I must admit I wouldn't feel comforatable toalking to someone wearing a veil, it would feel like a barrier.
Difficult subject with no easy answer, although I can certainly see Jack Straws point of view.

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 20 Oct 2006, 22:37

The teacher wearing the veil puzzles me. Did she not wear it at her interview? Didn't they mention a dress code then?
Don't know the full story but most schools( that I know) dont even allow pupils to have their faces covered for id reasons ie no hoodies, baseball caps on the premises.
It's a bit like the woman who is trying to sue the airline she works for( ?BA ) for not letting her wear a cross on duty. Their dress code says she can wear it but under her blouse, which is the same for most workers in the service industries. You wouldn't want anything disgruntled members of the public can grab and yank you about with.
I do believe that everyone has the right to dress as they want but appropriate to the circumstances. There will always be some people who through ignorance or lack of intellegence are frightened by anything "diffrent".

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 20 Oct 2006, 23:21

SoupDragon wrote: I do believe that everyone has the right to dress as they want but appropriate to the circumstances. There will always be some people who through ignorance or lack of intellegence are frightened by anything "diffrent".

That seems to be common sense and a balanced approach.

The person I feel sorry for is Rex_Mundi/Dave Connelly - he must be having trouble reconciling two conflicting views at the same time - on the one hand his penchant for quoting right-wing muslim-bashing rags like the Mail & the Express who seek to justify an outright ban on veils - making innocent women criminals - and at the same time putting forward the view that police time should only be spent chasing people who have committed real crimes.

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 21 Oct 2006, 00:00

Mr Mundi is still entitled to air his views, though haven't seen his particular thoughts expressed on this thread. Perhaps by arguing for "a common sence and balanced approach" we can educate others?

Where do we draw the line at what people can and cant wear? It's a way of identifying what group/ culture we belong to, neds and burberry, goths/emo and dark clothes, golf sets in Pringle jumpers, business men in suits, soup dragons in green scales. We then know who our "group" is and who should be our friends, not that I think that this is right, it just happens that way.

Do I stop youngest clanger, who is in the gloomy, dark phase of adolesence going out in his long black coat? I cant as it's his right to dress that way even though he got a skelp from some neds last weekend for being different Again they fear what they don't know don't have the capability to understand. ( as a mother I try to understand but fear )
Oh dear think I've climbed on a soap box and I dont like heights! Going to go lie down now and listen to something relaxing in a dark room

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 21 Oct 2006, 00:04

SoupDragon wrote:Mr Mundi is still entitled to air his views, though haven't seen his particular thoughts expressed on this thread. Perhaps by arguing for "a common sence and balanced approach" we can educate others?

Where do we draw the line at what people can and cant wear? It's a way of identifying what group/ culture we belong to, neds and burberry, goths/emo and dark clothes, golf sets in Pringle jumpers, business men in suits, soup dragons in green scales. We then know who our "group" is and who should be our friends, not that I think that this is right, it just happens that way.

Do I stop youngest clanger, who is in the gloomy, dark phase of adolesence going out in his long black coat? I cant as it's his right to dress that way even though he got a skelp from some neds last weekend for being different Again they fear what they don't know don't have the capability to understand. ( as a mother I try to understand but fear )
Oh dear think I've climbed on a soap box and I dont like heights! Going to go lie down now and listen to something relaxing in a dark room

Rex doesn't post views. He posts quotes of other people's.

p.s. You have won a prize for the most instances of the word "dark" in one post. Maybe a Marilyn Manson cd, or perhaps The Darkness.

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 21 Oct 2006, 00:37

Trying to lighten my mood?

Too much Kerrang, blame the Clangers.

1st time I've won something since I got 3 bottles of gin in a raffle and I cant stand the stuff. Feel just as happy!

Got some cds of Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy, much better than a guy who wears more make than me or a group who are disbanding as the lead singer is trying rehab.

bellybabe · Post by **bellybabe** » 21 Oct 2006, 09:01

SoupDragon wrote:The teacher wearing the veil puzzles me. Did she not wear it at her interview? Didn't they mention a dress code then?

Apparently she took it off for her interview, which is the thing that bothered me about that story.

Rex_Mundi · Post by **Rex_Mundi** » 21 Oct 2006, 18:35

Dadaist wrote:
The person I feel sorry for is Rex_Mundi/Dave Connelly - he must be having trouble reconciling two conflicting views at the same time - on the one hand his penchant for quoting right-wing muslim-bashing rags like the Mail & the Express who seek to justify an outright ban on veils - making innocent women criminals - and at the same time putting forward the view that police time should only be spent chasing people who have committed real crimes.

Darling, oh dear me, you have fallen again into the pit that is confusion of identities. Please do not confuse us. An ocean apart are we.

Also my dear to place an item on line does not necessairly state the opinion of the poster, does it

Is it not merely an item for discussion

Hurtfull dada, very hurtfull

Perhaps "The Connelly's are also us, or are they the rascal J. or even the Porty M. We eagerly await their first post, perhaps "last post". Goodness such confusion.

"I simply can't build my hopes on a foundation of confusion, misery and death ... I think. peace and tranquillity will return again.â€

Rex_Mundi · Post by **Rex_Mundi** » 21 Oct 2006, 18:40

You would like my own thought son the isuue of the veils eh Dada

gilo · Post by **gilo** » 21 Oct 2006, 20:23

Rex_Mundi wrote:Darling, oh dear me, you have fallen again into the pit that is confusion of identities. Please do not confuse us. An ocean apart are we.

Rex_Mundi wrote:Far too shrp those moderators are they not

Hold on hold on. The cutting comment, the smiley face, same MO?

Carol · Post by **Carol** » 21 Oct 2006, 20:54

In the earlier news reports the Veiled Lady was a Teaching Assistant but now the media refer to her only as a Teacher and there is a big difference between the two.

Hello Rex - what are you wearing from the shoulders down?

Black Mamba · Post by **Black Mamba** » 21 Oct 2006, 22:42

Well spotted Gilo

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 23 Oct 2006, 16:45

Carol wrote:In the earlier news reports the Veiled Lady was a Teaching Assistant but now the media refer to her only as a Teacher and there is a big difference between the two.

Maybe they had trouble recognising her? Who can blame them for getting confused.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 10 Nov 2006, 17:27

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 10 Nov 2006, 18:20

Brilliant Porty. Monty Python couldn't have done it better. Is there any truth in the rumour that Jack Straw now talks to veiled constituents through the letter box, to see how they like it?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 11 Nov 2006, 02:04

tom nimmo wrote:Brilliant Porty. Monty Python couldn't have done it better. Is there any truth in the rumour that Jack Straw now talks to veiled constituents through the letter box, to see how they like it?

That's more or less what I've been thinking. How would they like it? And how could we tell?

Cleopas · Post by **Cleopas** » 12 Nov 2006, 01:05

Those aren't veils!!! Veils are thin filmy things Princess Jasmine wears in film and panto.

What the "black bag" look is, is the full burqha with complete face mask (except for the eyeslit).

Don't forget, the Taleban insisted even the eyeslit be covered with a thin black mesh.

Far as I can see (and I dislike ALL religions equally) this is simply jealous male domination and subjugation of women ... the "tool of Satan" in Judeo-Christo-Islam mysticism.

Wotta load of garbage!!! If the troops have to fight anything, it should be to throw off the yoke of quasi-religious bigotry and free these women from centuries of being trodden on by stupid men who think with anything but their brains!

Down with Masculine Fascism!!!

(btw ... I am a male ... and I'm not gay!) I just totally believe in equality with the sexes.

My mother raised me that way!

teddygirl · Post by **teddygirl** » 12 Nov 2006, 10:12

You seem to be a bit unsure of your sexuality, Cleopas

I seem to remember on the "Meet Cleopas" thread started by Dadaist a few months ago you announced that you were male and "gay". Has something happened in the months that you have been missing that you are not telling us about?

Cleopas · Post by **Cleopas** » 12 Nov 2006, 14:38

I'm omnisexual.

Or on the turn ... yes again and my mother is looking up Dr Spock for answers to her dilemma.

Talk Porty ~ Portobello

Veils

Veils

Media Hype

Re: Media Hype