Arresting Use of Mobile Phone Camera

[nickchild]

I expect I'm not the first to think of this, but it's worth repeating it lots anyway. By accident of upgrading my mobile phone, I got one with a camera function on it. The mobile's camera function is now fairly well known if not rather fashionable.

Now, you know when you see someone who's dropping litter, or not poop-a-scooping after their pet, or are damaging property, or otherwise doing illegal things? You usually feel reluctant to confront them don't you?

Well, it occurred to me - - why not whip out your mobile phone camera and point it at them to take a photograph. Just the threat might do, but you could take it further and report them with visuals available!

In fact, any mobile phone would probably do the threat bit, since it's hard to tell which ones have a camera or not! You could stick a dark circle on the back to look like the lens to be sure!

I think this option will be more fun than the usual head-down irritation mode. And it might be at least mildly effective in worrying the miscreants and creating a more explicit culture of public disapproval! All done without CCTV or wardens or any extra expense. And we've got expertise right here from someone whose job entails photographing culprits in the act, eh, Bob! In this case, the minor delinquents might even learn to "smile"as they have their picture taken instead! I don't suppose it's legal to post the pictures in a rogue's gallery on this website though, is it? That's a shame! But I'm definitely getting into this nice mixture of citizen's activism, fun and fascism.

So why not join the Portobello Snap-Out-of-It Gang! I might just start with all those otherwise lovely school kids on the High Street at lunch time who are so "ill-litter-ate" with their bags and wrappers!

[wangi]

Actually, sounds like a recipe for a torrent of abuse!

[Porty]

So why not join the Portobello Snap-Out-of-It Gang! I might just start with all those otherwise lovely school kids on the High Street at lunch time who are so "ill-litter-ate" with their bags and wrappers!

I tell you one reason why? You will find yourself in a lot more bother than the kids.

[nickchild]

It would be worth finding out how many reacted like that, cos I think most will be more unsure and ashamed. If it became known that a number of Porty residents were likely to do this, then it would be worth one or two angry reactions.

It would also depend on how you took it after any abusive reaction, I guess. If they're angry, then that would be good news actually, cos it would mean they knew they were in the wrong and that you, the photographer had a valid point of view and some power over them. If you were brave, you could offer to delete the photo if they picked up the litter or whatever it was they were doing.

Obviously you wouldn't do it if you didn't feel able to manage the ensuing developments! I'd prefer to be able to do something about it than nothing. At present, I just do a symbolic picking up of litter that others have dropped every time I go out.

[Maria]

Heard of a chap up Hamilton Terrace way who photographed kids vandalising his car and ended up being ticked off for doing so by the Police. Could be an urban myth but then again............

[Porty]

Its no urban myth. We had a previous business premises vandalised several times over a period of Years. After one really bad incident the story made the local paper and a neighbour came forward who had lots of photographs of the perpetrators in the act. The Police were livid, not because she has taken the pictiures, because they could not be used or even referred to them when and if they ever caught the scum.
They were professionally obligated to caution the photographer and issue her with a stern warning. Im afraid you cannot go around taking photographs of kids without their P and G permission. Brealking one law to try and fix another is no way to go.

Mind you I'd love to see the police faces when they asked your name.

[nickchild]

OK OK. But I was never intending to be surreptitious about this. I'm quite happy to be above board and ask first - there are enough adults around doing some of those things and I could ask to photograph them. For kids I'd ask them where they lived so I could go and ask their parents' permission.

Of course they won't give permission, but it's just a different kind of angle, a new kind of starting point to an interaction, with some more options and power the other way round than usual, rather than the usual grimly ignoring them.

And I could photograph what they've just dropped or done without breaking the law surely?!

Has anyone got any other ways for the (presumably) majority of us to grow and show the kind of values about public places and (illegal) behaviour - values that are established in many other parts of the world. Switzerland or Cuba, to name opposite poles, have virtually no litter on the streets and (for various reasons) much less delinquency.

[wangi]

Simpy cut off one of their fingers each time... Should do the trick! Or a few lashings?

Oh, and it'd have to be an "on the spot" fine.

[Guest]

Nick, I sympathise entirely with your desire to re-address the balance of power in these situations, even if your suggestion is likely to be problematic. I'm sure we have all experienced that feeling of helplessness at witnessing anti-social behaviour and not being in a position to prevent it.

If it is unlawful to take a photograph of someone breaking the law, or to use such a photo as evidence, then the law is clearly an ass. Along with a neighbour, I confronted a large gang of youths in the toddlers playground in Rosefield Park one night. They had set fire to the litter bin and refused to move until my neighbour produced a video camera. Immediately, the hoods were up and they were off.

I believe we all have a responsibility to challenge anti-social behaviour and to help uphold standards of behaviour. That isn't always easy and often not advisable but we have to judge each situation and act accordingly.

There have been a number of occasions when I have arrived at our local park to find kids misbehaving. A few friendly words of advice in a parental tone are usually quite sufficient to resolve the situation but I am often disappointed to find other responsible adults who were not prepared to act. The message they are sending out is that it is fine to scrawl grafitti/swear/vandalise/drop litter and that as adults we will do nothing about it. Indeed, the most common reaction I get from these kids is shock and amazement that someone should challenge their behaviour. Doing nothing, looking the other way, expecting 'the authorities' to deal with everything is a cop out. If you care about your community you have to do your bit to protect it.

Recently, I threatened to publish the names of local dog owners who allowed their dogs to foul in our local parks. That's not an idle threat.

[Guest]

Marya, I wrote my post before I read yours, but interestingly we seem to be saying similair things.

Hypothetical question:

You are sitting on the top deck of the bus. In the back seat three teenagers are smoking cigarettes. What do you do?

A) Ask them politely but firmly to stop.
B) Ask the driver to intervene.
C) Do nothing. What's the point?

[Porty]

A then B.

As Nick, Marya and Bob say, I find it is good to engage them in a bit of chat. The most effective way is not to start off with the message that you wish to convey. Ask directions or for some other form of assistance and then engage. Won't work all the time but it does sometimes. Most teenagers are singullarly fine people. It is the one stage in their lives that they tend to 'gang' together, collectively they can be damaging. If one speaks to the group in a civil manner the chance are you will appeal to at least one or two members. The seeds of challenging whatever it is they are doing are sown.

[bellybabe]

The camera idea sounds great but as has been said is totally illegal. As Porty says, anything taken can't be used in evidence, and you actually get into trouble for having taken a picture in the first place. Oh, the irony. We've taken pics of people up to nonsense before, but knowing we can't actually use them; as has our neighbour when the problems on Bath Street were at their height - he used to lean out of the window with a noisy camera and take pics. They couldn't be used. And the biggest problem of all with that is that of course the people breaking all sorts of laws always know what their own rights are... It's maddening.

Other half always confronts people up to nonsense, especially on buses. It does indeed usually provoke embarrassment rather than anything else.

So what about cctv? When my handbag and purse were stolen from a petrol station, noboduy could be bothered to check it. But when someone I know was raped in the city centre, the cctv (what little there was back then) was used - to check out her story, that she went where she said she had, when she said she had, and so on. Not to catch the bastard. Seems our priorities are a little screwed up these days.

[nickchild]

Just to confirm, I'm certainly not down on kids. I think they're great too. I imagine, for example, in the lunch hour litter example, that many of those who drop their wrappers would rather not, but are doing it because they think other kids would think they were feeble to put them in the bins. Ditto too when they start smoking I guess. And that dynamic means that the more adults disapprove, the more that kind of kid feels grown up and independent.

I enjoy the various suggestions here of how to engage kids of all ages in talk. I'm sure it's all been said before on another part of the Forum that I haven't got to yet. For me the key bit would be to feel more solidarity amongst those of "us" so we know that there's more than just the one of us ready to do it. It would be best if "we" developed a similar sort of careful respectful way to do it too. Maybe the website is one way to help build that kind of "more than one of us" feeling, and the best way to do it.

One politician I know uses a line when she engages a whatever-er at the bus stop, about how she'd be grateful for the young person's help cos she is trying her best to ensure that kids get a good name locally - which is true!

Just to repeat my somewhat easier symbolic "some of us drop litter and some of us pick it up" campaign, which obviously doesn't solve the litter problem. But picking up one bit of litter and putting it in a bin each time I'm out, whether people see me or not, makes me feel I'm respectfully sharing my values in public. I feel it's important for me to do that without any righteousness or malice in my soul as I do it! Just a counter culture to those who "value" dropping their litter.

I know these High Street irritations are really extraordinarily minor misdemeanors compared to what many adults do to the world - global litter and abuse, and the politics of ignorance and selfishness behind it. It's just that we don't get to see them in the act, just the awful consequences round the world.

I'm a member of a political party for that bigger purpose. If anyone else (who isn't already doing so) would like to join the surprisingly few of us who are seriously trying to tackle those much bigger issues through the very challenging, difficult and complex art of politics, please contact a political party of your choice. Any party is better than none, but there's a nice open door under a red sign along the High Street to the one I'm involved with. If responding to littering locally is hard going, then politics needs all the help it can get. It's just as much in need of people getting involved and not grim head-down avoidance. (I wasn't expecting to take this global turn in the discussion here, but I'm not sorry that I have!)

[Mimpty]

Was a bus driver not prosecuted for reading a paper/ writing in a book or somesuch ? I'm sure he was prosecuted. He was caught by someone using a camera phone. I think this was in Aberdeen.

[nickchild]

Yes, I think I remember that story too.

[General Tactifer]

Taking pics of those breaking the law might be inadmissable in court, and may even be illegal, but it would be a brave (and foolhardy?) police officer who would risk the media vilification which would certainly result from prosecuting someone in those circumstances. Any polis out there? What would the CC say? Am I talking mince or not?

[Porty]

but it would be a brave (and foolhardy?) police officer who would risk the media vilification which would

There is a very thin line between bravery and stupidity.

In fact I'm certain our very own Gemini imagines she is very brave.

[nickchild]

I gather that a rich middle class Barnton "delinquent" was very recently caught and convicted of systematic racist spitting on an Asian neighbours Mercedes each morning as he passed by on his early morning run. How? By informal use of CCTV I'm told. So where's the "it's illegal" argument stand now?! Maybe it depends on the gravity of the crime that makes it legal? Is littering more or less serious than taking photographs without permission? It's also important to note that delinquents come from all ages, classes and areas!

[Guest]

And indeed here is a link to that particular story. Isn't it refreshing to read of scum like this getting caught in the act? Let's hope the court makes an example of him.

I will try to get some clarification under what circumstances photographic evidence is admissible in court. Perhaps we have some lawyers among our membership? Jamesie?