New Portobello High School- Where and how?

[Epykat]

Jessfield Bowling Club has a 100 year lease and I'll defend that green space with my life.

Why?

[Dadaist]

Everyone is debating golf course OR school. Take a step back, folks.

I would like to suggest either building the new school underground (thereby not disturbing the golf course) or putting (geddit) the golf course on the roofs of the new school complex - thereby not only creating a fun obstacle-filled environment for golfers but a green environment for the roofs of the school and out-buildings.

[Jotbox]

Good point. Also, has anyone made the connection yet between this thread and the reapier one?

Could the school be on the pier? Or even moored off it? Or even a mobile super-school, cruising round picking up students from Leith and Rosyth - offering staggered starts to the school day for pupils from different catchments. Instead of the school having a swimming pool, it would be in a solar-heated swimming pool. Hang on a minute, I think I might be going to far with this one...

[Epykat]

Twice as far as you needed to I'd say......

[Epykat]

..... compulsorally purchasing homes..... just might have your home in sight if it gets in the way of the High School scheme.

Which, I presume, is what will happen to the Janitors' houses currently on site?

[dccairns]

Jotbox asked: "Could the school be on the pier? Or even moored off it? Or even a mobile super-school, cruising round picking up students from Leith and Rosyth - offering staggered starts to the school day for pupils from different catchments. Instead of the school having a swimming pool, it would be in a solar-heated swimming pool. Hang on a minute, I think I might be going to far with this one..."

I think Moi? could give us the answer to that one.

[Mate of Marya]

Janitors conditions changed quite dramatically a few years back; new contracts etc., They were given the opportunity to purchase their homes at this time. Very few janitors actually live in a janitor's house on school grounds. There are very few Janitor's houses, presently owned by the Region left to sell.
Janitors are employed by the region and not the individual school. This allows the region to move Janitors from one school to another to cover for absence etc., By the way janitors are now called facilities assistants and the head janitor is a facilities co-ordinator.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Could the school be on the pier? Or even moored off it? Or even a mobile super-school, cruising round picking up students from Leith and Rosyth - offering staggered starts to the school day for pupils from different catchments. Instead of the school having a swimming pool, it would be in a solar-heated swimming pool. Hang on a minute, I think I might be going to far with this one...

By comparison its not a wholly unrealistic concept we could set up a joint steering commitee to figure it out. One problem i forsee is the School would be moored outside the catchment area. Much the same as it would were it sited at Holyrood. The 1800 kids would on average have to travel about as far again as they do at the moment. Still, it would mean that the 120 golfers would not be displaced .

[Stephen McIntyre]

And from today's Evening News.

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/lette ... =238172006

[Dadaist]

mobile super-school, cruising round

steering commitee

Your point, sir. You are on fine form.

An imaginary large floating super-school moored from an expensive imaginary pier should indeed not only be organized by a steering committee, but indeed steered by a committee - why should only one person decide if we are to go left or right (port or starboard of course, but they have no political double-meanings) when these decisions could be made by consultation and focus?

The passengers on the Titanic would surely have voted to not hit the iceberg.

[Bob Jefferson]

Back on dry land, I have managed to acquire a pdf of a booklet that was produced recently relating to the new schools to be built under PPP2, including Holyrood High of course.

It includes plans and artist impressions of the finished buildings and will, I'm sure, be of great interest to anyone following this thread.

If you want to skip straight to Holyrood it's on page 16.

PPP2 Schools

[Bob Jefferson]

Jessfield Bowling Club has a 100 year lease and I'll defend that green space with my life.

Why?

Quite simply because I'm not prepared to give up green space unless there is a very good reason for it, like a new school that won't fit anywhere else for example. If the Council simply wanted to build housing on the Golf Course then I don't think anyone would accept that.

[Bob Jefferson]

I have now added a permanent copy of the Radio Scotland programme.

Radio Scotland

[Gemini]

Why?

Quite simply because I'm not prepared to give up green space unless there is a very good reason for it, like a new school that won't fit anywhere else for example. If the Council simply wanted to build housing on the Golf Course then I don't think anyone would accept that.

The same old chestnut "like a new school that won't fit anywhere else" you and a handful of others, are the only ones who are
preaching this mantra! I can't accept that this is the case, and will not,
until we see what other options have been looked at! if indeed any ?


Still no response from reps. regarding relocation of the PITZ site?

The listed building I refered to as No.1 Porty High Street, I thought was
the old red brick building - former tram switching station, I believe that
this building is listed, although it may not be No.1

[seanie]

The first listed building you come to along Portobello High Street is No 52-60.

Grade B.

[Gemini]

I have now added a permanent copy of the Radio Scotland programme.

Radio Scotland

First time I have listened to this clip, although I was there on the day,
I think the pro PHS supporters - only 3 I think, where all over the place with their argument ,indeed dc had to correct them on a couple of occasions!

Ms Wood's ref to the cars parked there by golfers, I made an enquiry
re these cars - a few belonged to the golfers, most of the other's belonged
to the PGG staff, and the staff from the freighline area to the rear of the
PGC Club House, and others, Oh and 2 SUV's belonged to the pro PHS, others (myself included) walked.

[Dadaist]

Jessfield Bowling Club has a 100 year lease and I'll defend that green space with my life.

Why?

Quite simply because I'm not prepared to give up green space unless there is a very good reason for it, like a new school that won't fit anywhere else for example. If the Council simply wanted to build housing on the Golf Course then I don't think anyone would accept that.

....and the fact that your house is how many metres from Jessfield Bowling Club?

[Mate of Marya]

I have now added a permanent copy of the Radio Scotland programme.

Radio Scotland

First time I have listened to this clip, although I was there on the day,
I think the pro PHS supporters - only 3 I think, where all over the place with their argument ,indeed dc had to correct them on a couple of occasions!

Ms Wood's ref to the cars parked there by golfers, I made an enquiry
re these cars - a few belonged to the golfers, most of the other's belonged
to the PGG staff, and the staff from the freighline area to the rear of the
PGC Club House, and others, Oh and 2 SUV's belonged to the pro PHS, others (myself included) walked.

I was also there on the day and if my memory serves me correctly, there were only 8 people in total standing at the first tee. There was the Radio Scotland broadcaster, D Cairns, the 3 pro PHS supporters, the Lady Captain, a lady golfer and a token dog walker.
Emma's argument pro PHS was strong and factual, as many people will agree once listening to the Radio Scotland link. DC did not agree with Emma on one or two occasions but "correct them" is not the turn of phrase I would use to describe an exchange of opinions.
I did find it interesting that the Lady Captain had just been appointed, outwith the golf season. Captains are usually elected at the AGM for the start of the new season in April. It was a great pity she had to go inside before the end of the broadcast because she was too cold. I can assume from this action she is a fair weather golfer!!! The other lady with her one golf club, no ball or bag managed to stay until the end. Where was the Gentlemens' Captain? In fact, where were the men golfers?
It was strange that the cars supposedly belonged to the PGC staff. There is only one man in the starter box and occasionally a council greenkeeper who cuts the grass very infrequently during the summer months. A few would belong to the golfers, your right, because like any other day there were only a few golfers on the course!!!
Oh, and 1 of the 2 SUV's did belong to me. You were right. Well almost. I borrowed it from my husband to ensure I made my lunch time trip to PGC for this important business. If there had been no time restriction, like you, I would have walked.
The reason why we purchased an SUV is to hold the four sets of golf clubs, as we need to travel to a course which can offer better facilities at the same cost as PGC.

[Stephen McIntyre]

The same old chestnut "like a new school that won't fit anywhere else" you and a handful of others, are the only ones who are preaching this mantra! I can't accept that this is the case, and will not, until we see what other options have been looked at! if indeed any ?

If I understand you correctly you are saying "give us more information on what led to this proposal and give us more detail on what the proposal is" I totally agree and as far I am aware so does everyone else. Everyone recognises the need for information to decide whether or not to accept (not neccesarilly support) the proposal.

Some of us have jumped in and said well as long as the balance is correct we love the idea. Others are entrenched in the opposite view and some no matter what evidence or supportive argument is put forward will not alter their views and I mean on both sides.

I believe common sense will prevail in the issue but only if there is transparency on the decision making process.

Layiing everything else aside for the moment. What do you think of the decision, made back in the 60's, to place the largest secondary school on Edinburgh on the smallest site?

[Gemini]

The same old chestnut "like a new school that won't fit anywhere else" you and a handful of others, are the only ones who are preaching this mantra! I can't accept that this is the case, and will not, until we see what other options have been looked at! if indeed any ?

If I understand you correctly you are saying "give us more information on what led to this proposal and give us more detail on what the proposal is" I totally agree and as far I am aware so does everyone else. Everyone recognises the need for information to decide whether or not to accept (not neccesarilly support) the proposal.

Exactly, however, and I hope you will agree? there appears to be
many who are privvy to more information (excluding the 2 local reps)
whilst the remainder of us are in the dark

I believe common sense will prevail in the issue but only if there is transparency on the decision making process.

I agree.

Layiing everything else aside for the moment. What do you think of the decision, made back in the 60's, to place the largest secondary school on Edinburgh on the smallest site?

Forty years down the road - we can now see the folly of the decision makers.
What we don't want is, forty years down the road from now - People
complaining bitterly about the decision makers of today, turning this
fantastic green space into a concrete jungle.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Forty years down the road - we can now see the folly of the decision makers.

You seem to agree that the decison to put the school where it is was foolish. I believe we are wise enough not to make the same mistake again.

What we don't want is, forty years down the road from now - People
complaining bitterly about the decision makers of today, turning this
fantastic green space into a concrete jungle.

Gemini, there is absolutely no chance of us and i do mean "us" creating a concrete jungle. Look at the input on this thread!! Noone wants the school at the golf course at any cost. People want an eco-friendly, sensible, sensitive development that incorporates sports facilities and a substantial bio-diverse public park. Concrete jungles don't have those facilities.

I agree that some people appear to have more information than others. I got mine by asking my elected officials. They both told me different versions, as the proposal is so embryonic. Have you tried asking them?

[Gemini]

First time I have listened to this clip, although I was there on the day,
I think the pro PHS supporters - only 3 I think, where all over the place with their argument ,indeed dc had to correct them on a couple of occasions!

MOM quote>>

I was also there on the day and if my memory serves me correctly, there were only 8 people in total standing at the first tee. There was the Radio Scotland broadcaster, D Cairns, the 3 pro PHS supporters, the Lady Captain, a lady golfer and a token dog walker.

The token dog walker was also a anti PHS supporter.

Emma's argument pro PHS was strong and factual, as many people will agree once listening to the Radio Scotland link. DC did not agree with Emma on one or two occasions but "correct them" is not the turn of phrase I would use to describe an exchange of opinions.

It was quite interesting listening to Ms Wood's' Factual ' account of the
pros for the PHS, When, I have just been informed that we are not even at this stage YET

I did find it interesting that the Lady Captain had just been appointed, outwith the golf season. Captains are usually elected at the AGM for the start of the new season in April. It was a great pity she had to go inside before the end of the broadcast because she was too cold. I can assume from this action she is a fair weather golfer!!!

A bit below the belt, the lady in question (and I am sure she will forgive me for saying this) is not in your or my age bracket.
However, I believe she had been out on the course, waiting for quite
some considerable time before the BBC turned up.

The other lady with her one golf club, no ball or bag managed to stay until the end. Where was the Gentlemens' Captain? In fact, where were the men golfers?

Maybe the other lady was just out perfecting her 'swing'?
Perhaps it was ladies day on the course?

It was strange that the cars supposedly belonged to the PGC staff. There is only one man in the starter box and occasionally a council greenkeeper who cuts the grass very infrequently during the summer months. A few would belong to the golfers, your right, because like any other day there were only a few golfers on the course!!!

The remainder of the vehicles could have belonged to the staff of
Freightliner ? and/or other's.
Glad that you mentioned the fact, that the Greens are not regularly maintained. Sad reflection on the Council, I would say

Oh, and 1 of the 2 SUV's did belong to me. You were right. Well almost. I borrowed it from my husband to ensure I made my lunch time trip to PGC for this important business. If there had been no time restriction, like you, I would have walked

I also had time restrictions, as did the others!
However, happy to learn that you normally would have left the
car and walked.

The reason why we purchased an SUV is to hold the four sets of golf clubs, as we need to travel to a course which can offer better facilities at the same cost as PGC

[/quote]

How fortunate, many families can't afford to purchase 1 set of Golf Clubs!
You are also very fortunate - unlike many families, to be able to travel to other golfing facilities.

[Stephen McIntyre]

First time I have listened to this clip, although I was there on the day,
I think the pro PHS supporters - only 3

Only 3 was a remarkable turnout, as far as I know PHS supporters (what a curious way to put it) were not actually invited to attend the radio broadcast. Those that were invited included; Ricky Henderson, COEC Councillor as an expert on COEC playing fields, Colin Rennie in his capacity as head of the National Playing Fields Association, One or two representatives of the Golf Club, who have an obvious interest and Dc Cairns in a personal capacity.

[Gemini]

Forty years down the road - we can now see the folly of the decision makers.

You seem to agree that the decison to put the school where it is was foolish. I believe we are wise enough not to make the same mistake again.

What we don't want is, forty years down the road from now - People
complaining bitterly about the decision makers of today, turning this
fantastic green space into a concrete jungle.

Gemini, there is absolutely no chance of us and i do mean "us" creating a concrete jungle. Look at the input on this thread!! Noone wants the school at the golf course at any cost. People want an eco-friendly, sensible, sensitive development that incorporates sports facilities and a substantial bio-diverse public park. Concrete jungles don't have those facilities.

I agree that some people appear to have more information than others. I got mine by asking my elected officials. They both told me different versions, as the proposal is so embryonic. Have you tried asking them?

The PHS was a bad design, I did not say the location was wrong!

Yes I did ask my elected reps, as you - two different responses!

How can constructing Schools/Houses and whatever else etc. on PGC increase its eco-freindliness?


If the proposals are so embryonic, how can one make the following statement?

MOM quote>>

Emma's argument pro PHS was strong and factual

?

[Stephen McIntyre]

The PHS was a bad design, I did not say the location was wrong!

Eh? I asked the following question:

Layiing everything else aside for the moment. What do you think of the decision, made back in the 60's, to place the largest secondary school on Edinburgh on the smallest site?

To which you responded:

Forty years down the road - we can now see the folly of the decision makers.

Do you now want to change your answer?

[seanie]

There are two reasons, in principle, why this proposal is attractive, whether or not it’s justified when the details emerge.

The existing schools are unfit for their purpose. I don’t see anyone seriously disputing this point. I doubt that forcing teachers to take the bus is going to magically transform the situation.

There is no space to build new schools, on the existing site, whilst the existing schools are in operation.

The existing schools could not undergo the sort of refurbishment required, whilst the existing schools are in operation.

Both options would involve the huge disruption and cost of a decant. (I’d think for at least 2, probably 3, maybe more years.) And at the end of the day you’d still have schools on a site too small for their capacity.

The prospects of funding either option are slim to non-existent. The Council does not have the sort of capital required to invest without significant adverse affects elsewhere. And another round of PPP is (thankfully) not on the horizon.

So if the problems with the schools are to be addressed, instead of ignored or wished away, a realistic, viable proposal will have to involve two things;

A. A new school on a new site.
B. The generation of capital specifically for the project.

Anything else is never going to fly. So if anyone has spiffy new proposals that meet those two criteria please fire away. I for one would be delighted to take them into consideration. With one caveat.

They have to be within touching distance of reality.

No pie-in-the sky fantasy or voodoo economics.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Superbly thought out and crafted post, seanie.

[Bob Jefferson]

The Golf Course proposal dominates the letters page of today's EN:

Give us full details of Portobello plans

Great opportunity for state-of-the-art schools

Where do the children play?

[Stephen McIntyre]

Charles Douglas letter is mostly excellent. With the glaring exception of the suggestion to site the new school at Brunstane. The thrust of his argument is to preserve the position of the youngsters who currently walk to play at PGC. His solution?

He suggests the school, to which 1400 youngsters have to gain access to on more than 200 days a year, is moved to the edge of the catchment area. Significantly further away from 5 out of 6 feeder primaries and St Johns. Charles (who if i'm correct used to be a maths teacher) shoud do the math. Thats 1400 children, most walking much further, twice a day, 200+ days a year, many times in dark mornings. In my view the displacement of a few hundred golfers journeys through the season compared to the significant displacement of more than 520,000 (half a million) school journeys is totally inequitable, totally unreasonable, impractical and most importantly hugely increases the safety risk to children getting to and from school.

Think of it this way: at the moment maybe 300 children have to cross the A1 twice to get toand from PHS each day. Move the school to Holyrood or Brunstane that number would rise to 1100. When I attended Brunstane primary the sister of one of my classmates was serioulsy injured being hit by a car as she crossed the A1 one morning going to PHS. Her friend was killed outright.

Have a word.

[Mate of Marya]

Perhaps people should listen to the Radio Scotland link again. "We should all be working together." I don't admire the terms "pro PHS supporters" or anti PHS supporters."
We all want what is best for the Portobello Community. No-one wants to lose green space and everyone accepts the need for a New Portobello High School.
Consultation hasn't started yet and facts regarding the detail of the new PHS have not been established yet.
Emma's argument was strong and factual regarding many related issues which were being discussed: the length of time it takes to walk from PGC to the new proposed site; the amount of cars around PGC; the size of the new golf course; the increase in recreational space, as well as the need for a new PHS and Environmental Justice.
This is not a cat and mouse game between a few people. There will always be divided opinions. We should all stop thinking about ourselves as individuals and think of Portobello as a Community.

[Bob Jefferson]

Following a recent complaint, I would like to re-iterate something I said back on page 7 of this thread, and I would like to make it clear that I am making this post with my Moderator hat on:

This is an important debate so let's keep personal differences and petty politics out of it and concentrate on the issues.

I understand that the Golf Course proposal is a very important and emotive issue for many people. By and large, the discussion has been of high quality but there have been one or two occasions when individuals have let themselves and the forum down with ill-advised comments and cheap shots. Please refer to the Posting Guidelines for further information. Comment that is considered to be offensive or off-topic will be deleted.

[Gemini]

The PHS was a bad design, I did not say the location was wrong!

Eh? I asked the following question:

Layiing everything else aside for the moment. What do you think of the decision, made back in the 60's, to place the largest secondary school on Edinburgh on the smallest site?

To which you responded:

Forty years down the road - we can now see the folly of the decision makers.

Do you now want to change your answer?

I thought it was amazing! especially in comparison to the all girl
school I attended Didn't give the size or the site it stood
on, a second thought! What kid would?

[Stephen McIntyre]

Layiing everything else aside for the moment. What do you think of the decision, made back in the 60's, to place the largest secondary school on Edinburgh on the smallest site?

I thought it was amazing! especially in comparison to the all girl school I attended Didn't give the size or the site it stood
on, a second thought! What kid would?

Is that your final answer?

[Charles]

Further to Stephen McIntyre’s comments about my letter to the Evening News on Thursday, I whole heartedly agree that the safety of children is paramount, and that there is danger in crossing the A1. Surely this is not an insurmountable problem, and the Council could divert some of the money they plan to spend installing green ways and bus shelters on improved pedestrian crossings across the A1, which could be supervised during normal lollipop hours.
I acknowledge that there are other benefits to minimising the distance travelled by pupils, but the Brunstane site would still be within walking distance of the majority of the catchment, and we are constantly extolling the virtues of increasing the activity of youngsters, so surely a walk to school can also be a good thing? (Incidently, many high school pupils already catch the bus to Portobello High School). One minute we’re going on about the fantastic sports facilities we must provide for the school children, and the next minute saying that it is unreasonable for them to be asked to walk to school. One minute we’re saying that the site at Brunstane is a fantastic location for a new community golf course, and the next that we couldn’t possibly expect our children to walk there. Make your mind up!
Just for the record, I have never been a maths teacher, although I do admit to being a history teacher for many years, and having taught in creaky old buildings, appreciate the educational need for decent buildings.
In response to Stephen’s request that I “do the mathâ€

[Bob Jefferson]

Charles, welcome to the forum and to this debate in particular, which was becoming very boringly one-sided. I can well understand your concerns about a school on the Golf Course, given your proximity to it.

I'm afraid the truth is that there simply is no alternative site. The land at Brunstane is greenbelt. A golf course is an appropriate use of greenbelt, a school is not.

It is interesting that this site is considered too far for golfers to walk to, although they walk for miles during the course of a round. It is, according to some, 'nearer to Musselburgh', '45 minutes walk' and even 'in East Lothian' yet you propose that our kids should walk there?