New Portobello High School- Where and how?

[bellybabe]

Thanks, Alison, for the clarification of the St John's board position. That's extremely helpful. Also, my apologies to both you and Brenda for having had my own defensive reaction - it's difficult to get clear facts in all of this.

Paula

[Stephen McIntyre]

Evening News, March 6th 2006

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/lette ... =338362006

Golf course plan is the best option
EVERYONE is in favour of green space, so when green space is threatened it's an easy call: defend it from development. But the reality is much more complicated. It's not just about the amount of green space it's about the quality of green space and the value that it offers to the local community.

The current Portobello High School building is at the end of its life and urgently needs replacement. We cannot condemn our children indefinitely to suffering inadequate facilities. The 1800 school children in our community deserve a fair share of the green space in Portobello.
St John's, too, occupies increasingly cramped premises without the standard of modern facilities that people increasingly expect.

The council and Portobello school board say they have assessed the available sites and there are no other realistic alternatives. This assessment must be made public to reassure people that there has been a thorough options appraisal and build confidence that the relocation of the schools really will bring benefits to the children in the schools and to the wider community.

A group of local residents and parents have formed Portobello for New Schools (PFANS). Schools in a park is our vision for Portobello, not because we want to see green space removed but because we know that it can be used in a way that improves the school experiences of our children.

We know that we must improve the standards of health and fitness of our young people. We know too that high-quality schools in a good environment will improve their chances in life. We believe that the schools in a park proposal would help achieve these goals and deserves to be the basis for wide-ranging consultation.

The schools in the park proposal could also involve new playing fields, improving the remaining green space. The golf course would then be moved to a larger site in Brunstane, where new "green space", apparently almost twice the size of the existing golf course, would be reclaimed from agricultural land. It would be foolish to pretend that this does not involve difficult choices. For example, it appears the council might propose some housing on the golf course site.

As a city we are growing and Portobello is part of that growth. If we are to continue to grow we need to ensure that our green space is used in a way which offers the most value to the local community.

Portobello golf course is not used in the best way for a relatively densely populated part of the city. Aside from the golfers there are dog walkers and the occasional jogger but, in general, the green space is under-used and does not offer the amenities that it could.

We believe that moving the schools to the golf course site is an excellent way of using the green space and maximising its value to the local community. The relocation should also provide modernised playing fields with the remaining green space improved. It will be available for community use and it will offer facilities that will be of real benefit to residents as well as school pupils.

If the golf course is relocated to another site, more accessible green space will be created. And this is the key. You wouldn't know it listening to some campaigners, but the amount of green space in the east of the city is increasing.

The point is that it should be quality green space, offering real value to local communities and the city as a whole. We need to work as a whole community, with the neighbouring areas affected by the Portobello catchment area and make sure that this relocation provides a fair share for everyone.

Richard Butt, Portobello for New Schools, Marlborough Street, Portobello

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/lette ... =338362006

[Stephen McIntyre]

Does anyone have the correct information. Maureen if I misheard please let me know

There does appear to be mixed messages floating around. Hopefully the purchase of the land will get cleared up at tonight's meeting. I know there is a lot of speculation that the council will not build another golf course. I was therefore greatly encouraged that bbbrown had located a reliable source from withinh the council that confirmed a larger course would be built.

[Maria]

From today's "Evening News" letters page

Fair way to use land for greater good of all

GOLF is a land-hungry sport. In Portobello we have a 53-acre site which is located just off our high street in the centre of our community. More than two thirds of the site is dedicated to golf.

There is a population of 35,000 in the three wards surrounding this facility yet only 120 members of Portobello Golf Club, many of whom live outwith the area. The club has played for over 100 years and still it has no junior section.

Edinburgh Leisure stated that 30,000 people played the course last year (News, March 1). This equates to approximately 80 people per day. This is not an equitable use of such a huge community resource.

The council is offering to relocate the golf course to a newly-created course nearby and then build two schools complete with floodlit facilities for multiple sports such as rugby, football, tennis and hockey in some of the space the golfers have vacated.

There is a dearth of such facilities in Portobello and, when they are provided, they shall be used by a much wider group within the community, year-round for much longer periods of time. It will be a tremendous boost for the fitness and health of many more people but particularly our children.

Portobello Golf Club is not under threat, they are only being asked to move over and allow the greater community to enjoy its resource. A fair and reasonable request.

Dave Davidson, Seaview Terrace, Joppa

[Dadaist]

From today's "Evening News" letters page

Fair way to use land for greater good of all

GOLF is a land-hungry sport. In Portobello we have a 53-acre site which is located just off our high street in the centre of our community. More than two thirds of the site is dedicated to golf.

There is a population of 35,000 in the three wards surrounding this facility yet only 120 members of Portobello Golf Club, many of whom live outwith the area. The club has played for over 100 years and still it has no junior section.

Edinburgh Leisure stated that 30,000 people played the course last year (News, March 1). This equates to approximately 80 people per day. This is not an equitable use of such a huge community resource.

The council is offering to relocate the golf course to a newly-created course nearby and then build two schools complete with floodlit facilities for multiple sports such as rugby, football, tennis and hockey in some of the space the golfers have vacated.

There is a dearth of such facilities in Portobello and, when they are provided, they shall be used by a much wider group within the community, year-round for much longer periods of time. It will be a tremendous boost for the fitness and health of many more people but particularly our children.

Portobello Golf Club is not under threat, they are only being asked to move over and allow the greater community to enjoy its resource. A fair and reasonable request.

Dave Davidson, Seaview Terrace, Joppa

This letter reads like one of Stephen Macintyre's posts - maybe it was inspired by some of them! Anyway, recycling is a good thing.

Whilst I agree that the school should be built on the golf course, I hate this line of argument. Cost and size - yes. There's no other way of getting the right sized school funded and built - if you accept seanie's figures that is.

But to turn round to the golfers and tell them that they have not made good enough use of their course, and have not marketed themselves properly is quite odd. For starters, it should be the Council that this argument is made to - as far as I knew it, all you have to do to be a polite golfer is replace your divots, not justify your own existence on the planet!

We need their course because - through no fault of theirs - we have no other way of getting round the new school problem. I reluctantly agree with that. But to turn up somewhere with a Darwinian argument as to why X,Y or Z has to go, and that this is ok anyway because they were in some way sub-optimal - that's one nasty argument.

Mr Davidson goes so far as to use the lack of a junior section as part of his overall justification. If my neighbour didn't plant and tidy their garden to my own standard, does that mean I get their land?

[Stephen McIntyre]

I wished you would spell my name properly.

But to turn round to the golfers and tell them that they have not made good enough use of their course, and have not marketed themselves properly is quite odd.

It is a question of opportunity cost.

For starters, it should be the Council that this argument is made to -

I don't know about Mr Davidson but I assure you I am making the argument to the council.

as far as I knew it, all you have to do to be a polite golfer is replace your divots, not justify your own existence on the planet!

For the nth time. The golfers are not being asked to justify their "existence on the planet" it is their planetary whereabouts that's being questioned, with Portobello being the planet in question.

[Pal of Porty]

Mr Davidson goes so far as to use the lack of a junior section as part of his overall justification.

Mr Dadaist - Perhaps Mr Davidson was merely referring to the recent Radio Scotland Broadcast, where the Golfers' representative was placing importance on recent steps to start a junior section when they have already had 150 years to do so. It sounds like the Golfers' are the ones trying to justify their existence!

[Dadaist]

I'm really sorry I have got your name wrong. Mcintyre. Mcintyre.

We are the ones who have made the golfers fight for their current habitat, and are busy getting the helicopter and the tranquilizer gun ready before we dart them and ship them off to their new park.

Can you really blame them for fighting back?

[Stephen McIntyre]

Opportunity cost

Definition

The cost of passing up the next best choice when making a decision. For example, if an asset such as capital is used for one purpose, the opportunity cost is the value of the next best purpose the asset could have been used for. Opportunity cost analysis is an important part of a any decision-making processes, but is not treated as an actual cost in any financial statement.

[Dadaist]

Opportunity cost

Definition

The cost of passing up the next best choice when making a decision. For example, if an asset such as capital is used for one purpose, the opportunity cost is the value of the next best purpose the asset could have been used for. Opportunity cost analysis is an important part of a any decision-making processes, but is not treated as an actual cost in any financial statement.

All well and good - but it has been applied retroactively and is being used to ease our guilt. You've had 150 years to complain about them not having a junior section!

[Jbrock]

I posted an early version of this leaflet on 1 March. Please find an updated copy giving an e-mail address for those who want to register support for Portobello for New Schools and notice of the invitation to a public meeting on Wednesday, 22 March, 1900-2030h at St John's School.


Reverse

[Stephen McIntyre]

Can you really blame them for fighting back?

Not at all, The golfers reaction is a perfectly understandable but I don't think they or those who jumped on the bandwagon should get away with making stuff up.

Earlier you asked about PGC being scrutinised and would I be doing so had the the council not mooted this proposal? The answer is no.

However, now we are faced with a community that has a real dilema and difficult decisions to make. Everything will be scrutinised and I'm sure PGC will find things out about themselves that they previoulsy didn't know. I'm still hoping common sense will prevail.

[PortyMan]

Stephen said:

The golfers reaction is a perfectly understandable but I don't think they or those who jumped on the bandwagon should get away with making stuff up.

Pot-Kettle-Black?

[seanie]

There's no other way of getting the right sized school funded and built - if you accept seanie's figures that is.

My figures weren't meant to indicate how big a redeveloped school should be, but rather to highlight the inadequacies of the existing site. As I said the minimum standards set out in BB82 are really inadequate by modern standards. If you look at the link I provided to BB95 you'll see an indication as to why on page 20;

Schools in the future will be focal points for the whole community, providing learning in a variety of ways aswell as other services. This is likely to result in an increase in the overall area.

[Dadaist]

There's no other way of getting the right sized school funded and built - if you accept seanie's figures that is.

My figures weren't meant to indicate how big a redeveloped school should be, but rather to highlight the inadequacies of the existing site. As I said the minimum standards set out in BB82 are really inadequate by modern standards. If you look at the link I provided to BB95 you'll see an indication as to why on page 20;

Schools in the future will be focal points for the whole community, providing learning in a variety of ways aswell as other services. This is likely to result in an increase in the overall area.

I don't doubt any of that, seanie. The reason I put in the phrase "if you accept seanie's figures" is because people like Brain McCrow seem to have tantrums when they are presented with the facts!

[Dadaist]

However, now we are faced with a community that has a real dilema and difficult decisions to make.

That's exactly why your argument should not only be watertight, but not able to be used as ammunition by the golfers. This line of justification regarding poor use of the course could easily play into their hands, as it is very easily transposed onto any other "asset" - all you have to do is define this or that communal area as an asset and then explain why it doesn't measure up.

[Pal of Porty]

Whether the existing golf course is over or under used does not seem to matter - there seems almost universal approval that if they do lose their course they should get a new one. I certainly would not vote for a plan that did not provide a suitable alternative for our golfers.

[Epykat]

So........has the fue duty on the Golf Course expired - or not? Are houses to be built on the Golf Course site - or not? Has the Pitz site been sold - or not?

Don't bother asking the Council - because they don't know.

A very informative and lively Public meeting

[Epykat]

I was therefore greatly encouraged that bbbrown had located a reliable source from withinh the council that confirmed a larger course would be built.

Well, either their source is unreliable or the horse's mouth we had at the meeting tonight was unreliable! The course is going to be a 9 hole golf course - according to our reliable source

[Dadaist]

Caption Competition



Lady on the left : "Youse are a fae the chop - like this .... hiiiii YA"

Ewan Aitken : "An important question and one that we hadn't considered - but we need to have this conversation and I will get back to you with exact figures. Next question."

[seanie]

So........has the fue duty on the Golf Course expired - or not?

Is it important? I thought Feu duties had been largely abolished, and it was possible to redeem them previously.

[Bob Jefferson]

This information comes from Keith Jackson, Chief Executive at Edinburgh Leisure

RESEARCH FINDINGS FROM PORTOBELLO GOLF COURSE

[Bob Jefferson]

So now we know. How do people get to Portobello Golf Course?

Only 4% walk there and a staggering 91% arrive by car. Pretty much as I expected in fact.

[ian]

There are many ways to criticise this research. But even allowing it to be correct, its easy to be suspicous about what the council is doing when they say they haven't made up their mind.

In November 2004 the feudal rights are dropped on the golf course and surrounding park. The park is no longer protected from development legally.

By June 2005 the council has commissioned research to find out how many people drive or walk to Portobello Golf Club - they did not do this research at any other golf club because they were already planning to move it to a new site.

Things work slowly in the council. It isn't surprising that they have been planning this for a while. What is shocking though is that they won't fess up.

[Alison Connelly]

..

[Alison Connelly]

..

[Pal of Porty]

I think it was interesting that the council chose to illustrate the "new school newsletter" which they handed out at the public meeting last night with a picture of Craigmount High. This school was completed 3 years ago adjacent to its previous building. It was previously located on a large open space, but when the new school was built part of the plan was to use some of the "extra" space for housing. Now the school has a nice new building, an astro pitch and 2 grass pitches (which have only last month finally been deemed usable as there have been drainage and other problems and the grass hasn't grown). None of the pitches are regulation size, because they haven't got enough space. It is questionable whether the grass pitches will ever be "let" for community use, as there are doubts over whether they can sustain the volume of traffic - it is anticipated that their condition will be difficult to maintain because of the amount of foot traffic during the school day. The astro pitch however is fenced off, much more hardy and heavily booked in the evenings. It is not available on Saturday afternoons or Sundays because of janitorial cover. The school take their pupils to pitches at the Gyle.

Lessons to be learned there.

[Maria]

It isn't surprising that they have been planning this for a while. What is shocking though is that they won't fess up.

It was hardly a well kept secret that the Council had asked its officials to investigate different possibilities for a site for a new PHS Ian, just ask any of the PHS School Board or anyone who was at the Public Meeting in the Town Hall on 12 October 2005, where the Golf Course option was mentioned. In fact, this thread was started subsequent to that meeting.

[wangi]

I was therefore greatly encouraged that bbbrown had located a reliable source from withinh the council that confirmed a larger course would be built.

Well, either their source is unreliable or the horse's mouth we had at the meeting tonight was unreliable! The course is going to be a 9 hole golf course - according to our reliable source

One 9 hole golf course can still be (a lot) bigger than another 9 hole golf course.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Another hole in one of Epykat's arguments.

[Dave Connelly]

CAPTION COMPETITION

Lady on the left : "Youse are a fae the chop - like this .... hiiiii YA"

Ewan Aitken : "An important question and one that we hadn't considered - but we need to have this conversation and I will get back to you with exact figures. Next question."

"Thankyou for that very relevant question Madame, however your right to ask it expired 30 seconds after you started speaking and as the appropriate body has not attempted to re-ask the question in the statutory time given, any rights you may have had, morally or otherwise have now lapsed"
________________________________________________________

“Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answersâ€

[Dadaist]

You said it Portobellosite.

I would like to know the mechanics of the statutory consultation process. There's such a big difference between consultation and involvement - but I would like to know more about how they go about taking feelings into account without actually taking a poll from everyone in the affected area.

It seems to just come down to - as Ewan said it did last night a "judgement call" by the grown-ups - but how on earth do you weight a school board (which represents thousands) against a golf club (which represents hundreds) ?

If last night was anything to go by, this will run and run. lapsed feu duties, sewage pipes, housing percentages, Corsie, Craigmillar, time to golf course playability, small pitches, Pitz lease, propaganda leaflets, bitter parents, irate golfers.

Poor Rev Aitken did ok fending off nearly 2 hours of questions, but so much information was flying about it was difficult to keep up - I'm looking forward to plenty of minutes, transcriptions and dispelled myth.

[Brian McCrow]

New Dalkeith High School - PPP on time, to budget

The new campus offers exceptional sport and leisure facilities, available to all three schools and the wider community. These include classrooms designed for a 21st century curriculum as well as an all weather running track, an all weather full size floodlit football and hockey pitch, three grass football pitches, two grass rugby pitches and a cricket square. There is also a competition size swimming pool plus a smaller pool, hydrotherapy pool, spa pool, steam room and sauna, the first proper theatre facility in Midlothian in a 500 seat assembly hall and a large sports hall, with retractable seating for 500 spectators.

The Scottish Executive is investing £2 billion over the next 6 years in modernising the school estate. That will build or rebuild 300 schools by 2009.

In June 1999, the Scottish Executive announced support for a £33 million PPP project for a new campus in Dalkeith under 30 year contract, at the end of which ownership of the buildings passes to the Council. The campus is managed by HBG Facilities Management, part of the company which built the campus under contract to Midlothian Council. Construction started in May 2002 and was completed in October 2003, and the project was delivered on time and on budget.

[Brian McCrow]

Schools plan back on track - Jan 2006

The City of Edinburgh Council is delighted to announce great New Year news for the city’s schools.

The £180 million schools building programme (PPP2 - the second education public private partnership in the city and part of the Council’s Smart Schools Programme) is back on track following excellent progress with Axiom Education. Subject to some outstanding issues, Axiom will be named very soon as the preferred tenderer for the new build of eight schools. Work could start on some sites as early as this summer.

Reports from the schools suggest that they welcome the high standard of the designs for their buildings. There are now completely new designs for Holy Rood RC High School and Craigroyston Community High School.

"Very good" design solutions have already been achieved by Axiom for Holy Rood High, Bonaly and Juniper Green Primary Schools and the designs for Forrester, St. Augustine’s, Craigroyston and Broughton High Schools will be of equal quality with some additional design work.

A suitable design for Tynecastle High will complete the ambitious programme and work is continuing with Axiom to overcome the constraints of an undoubtedly difficult site. A number of well received sketch designs have recently been presented and the PPP Project Board believes that a design of equal standard to that of the other seven schools will very soon be agreed with Axiom.

Parents will see the designs for their comments at a series of meetings in late February.

Holy Rood Head Teacher Lesley Caroll said:
"I’m delighted that the PPP Board are to recommend Axiom as the preferred bidder."

"Whilst we were unhappy with Axiom's original submission, they have now demonstrated that they really are listening to the school," she said. "The new designs will deliver an absolutely fabulous building that will be the envy of schools across the country. The PPP Board and City of Edinburgh Council are to be commended for the way in which the whole process has been conducted. They have gone to great lengths to involve staff, pupils and parents at every step."


Forrester High School Head Teacher Allan Clapperton added:
"Pupils, parents and staff are both delighted and excited by the very positive news about the plans to build a new Forrester. The Council team has done an outstanding job steering us to a position where the whole project can go ahead. The consultation process was first class and I'm sure that all eight schools can look forward to superb new buildings and facilities that will rank amongst the best in the country."


Cllr Rev Ewan Aitken, Executive Member for Children and Families, said this was "the best possible news" he could deliver for the start of 2006. "I’m delighted that our plans to give pupils and teachers the excellent schools they deserve is back on track. It is great news for Edinburgh. My thanks go to everyone who has worked so hard to make this happen."

[bbbrown]

Just to clear up another misconception started by stephen Mcintyre (he who is so keen to put words into peoples mouths and generally distort things).

I dont have a reliable council source (surely a contradiction in terms anyway). In fact I dont have any sort of council source.The quote he attributes to me about a larger golf course and houses at Brunstane was posted by Brenda in the..

'PHS and St Johns: Questions for COEC and/or our ER's'

...thread on the forum. I made the mistake of thinking she actually was posting some thing reliable.

What struck me from last nights meeting was

a) the council is itching to develop Portobello golf course

and

b)they are not going to be up front with us about pretty much anything

I came away feeling I wouldn't trust them to deliver the proverbial piss up in a brewery, never mind a top class school with superb sporting facilities for all.