New Portobello High School- Where and how?

[Maria]

I would like to think that there will be meetings at the feeder schools, but I can't help thinking they would be to 'advise us' of decisions already made, and I haven't heard of any arrangements yet.

St John's Newsletter to parents on Fri 10 March gave an outline of their plans Mr M. ; School Board to meet 14 March, followed by meeting of School Board, PTA and Staff on 28 March which Roy Jobson will attend.
'Following that meeting the School Board intend to have a wider consultation with parents, teachers and pupils before any decisions are made regarding the future of St John's.'

So no date for a meeting for St John's parents, but a clear expression of intent.

[Dadaist]

I didn't find anything in it that wasn't in this thread though -

Think there were some things and as you say it was better laid out.

It was written by the people who came up with the plan in the first place. They are the only people we have. Are you saying that the information contained within cannot be trusted? If so, where do we go from here?

I'm not saying that the information in it couldn't be trusted at all. But if I was wondering whether someone should do something and wanted information on what they wanted to do, I would want some that was either certifiably unbiased, or at least not written by the person that wanted to do it. I would hold the information that came from the source that wanted to carry out said act at arms' length - because even if they were trying to be unbiased and informative, they are less likely to be self-critical.

The only example which comes to my mind - and I apologise if this is not relevant but it's all I can think of - is the war in Iraq. If I got a leaflet on the war on Iraq through my door from someone calling themselves "Stop The War Coalition" I would expect anti-war propaganda. If it was from someone calling themselves "New Labour" I would expect pro-war propaganda. I know that this is a proposed building project and not a war - but in terms of who and where you get your information from, it's relevant to question the motivations (conscious or otherwise) of the author(s).

[Stephen McIntyre]

I'm not saying that the information in it couldn't be trusted at all. But if I was wondering whether someone should do something and wanted information on what they wanted to do, I would want some that was either certifiably unbiased, or at least not written by the person that wanted to do it.

I would hold the information that came from the source that wanted to carry out said act at arms' length - because even if they were trying to be unbiased and informative, they are less likely to be self-critical.

Using this logic and rationale we cannot work with the council, so where do we go from here? Serioulsy, what process do you suggest we adopt?

[Dadaist]

I'm not saying that the information in it couldn't be trusted at all. But if I was wondering whether someone should do something and wanted information on what they wanted to do, I would want some that was either certifiably unbiased, or at least not written by the person that wanted to do it.

I would hold the information that came from the source that wanted to carry out said act at arms' length - because even if they were trying to be unbiased and informative, they are less likely to be self-critical.

Using this logic and rationale we cannot work with the council, so where do we go from here? Serioulsy, what process do you suggest we adopt?

When they had trouble next door in Craigmillar with money allocation and cronyism last time round (not this one with Paul Nolan and the SIP) they got someone independent didn't they?

In order to be truly informed, outsiders need to be involved - which is partly why I wondered how the statutory consultation process worked.

I'd like to see everyone who will be affected by this project get information from an independent/unbiased source, and then get a vote on whether the project should or shouldn't happen - as opposed to the "judgement call" that Ewan Aitken said they will be making. It might be the way these things work - but only if there is a democratic process will people in the future be able to say that the decision was fair.

[Stephen McIntyre]

I'd like to see everyone who will be affected by this project get information from an independent/unbiased source,.

So for example: The Power league site is smaller than the existing school sites and it is on the periphery of the catchment area, therefore it is deemed unsuitable. I guess we could pay an independent source that would be more a acceptable to advise us that the school should not be moved to an even smaller site than it has at present and further away from the centre of the community.

The Scottish Power site is slightly larger than than the existing school sites and it is on the periphery of the catchment area, it is not owned by the council, therefore it is deemed unsuitable. Let's call in an independent source to tell us that too

Holyrood :Leaving aside all of the other issues, such as periphery of the catchment area., 170,000 extra schoolchild journeys across the 4 lane A1 each year. We are told that there is not enough space, as it is greenbelt and a protected area of urban wildlife in a park that was designed ny Capability Brown. Surely. this information must be in the public domain? Will we get in an independent source?

The source may, in your view, be biased but common sense can prevail. Particularly when most of the data is auditable.

[Dadaist]

I'd like to see everyone who will be affected by this project get information from an independent/unbiased source,.

So for example: The Power league site is smaller than the existing school sites and it is on the periphery of the catchment area, therefore it is deemed unsuitable. I guess we could pay an independent source that would be more a acceptable to advise us that the school should not be moved to an even smaller site than it has at present and further away from the centre of the community.

The Scottish Power site is slightly larger than than the existing school sites and it is on the periphery of the catchment area, it is not owned by the council, therefore it is deemed unsuitable. Let's call in an independent source to tell us that too

Holyrood :Leaving aside all of the other issues, such as periphery of the catchment area., 170,000 extra schoolchild journeys across the 4 lane A1 each year. We are told that there is not enough space, as it is greenbelt and a protected area of urban wildlife in a park that was designed ny Capability Brown. Surely. this information must be in the public domain? Will we get in an independent source?

The source may, in your view, be biased but common sense can prevail. Particularly when most of the data is auditable.

It's your right to be against people getting their information from an independent source. I respectfully disagree.

Do you think that the decision on whether to go ahead with the project should be taken by the community in a democratic vote?

[Stephen McIntyre]

It's your right to be against people getting their information from an independent source. I respectfully disagree.

I'm not against it at all. I am questioning the need in this case when much of the information is auditable and already in the public domain.

Do you think that the decision on whether to go ahead with the project should be taken by the community in a democratic vote?

I am in two minds about that. We have elected representatives that are charged with making decisons. I accept that some decisions are so significant that there may be an argument for a poll. I'm not sure this qualifies? We basically move golfers half a mile or so and give the children of our commuinity every benefit we can afford. The community needs schools, no neighbourhood should be immune from having those schools in either their front or backyard.

[Dadaist]

It's your right to be against people getting their information from an independent source. I respectfully disagree.

I'm not against it at all. I am questioning the need in this case when much of the information is auditable and already in the public domain.

Do you think that the decision on whether to go ahead with the project should be taken by the community in a democratic vote?

I am in two minds about that. We have elected representatives that are charged with making decisons. I accept that some decisions are so significant that we there may be an argument for a poll. I'm not sure this qualifies? We basically move golfers half a mile or so and give the children of our commuinity every benefit we can afford. The community needs schools, no neighbourhood should be immune from having those schools in either their front or backyard.

I didn't ask you for a potted version of your opinion of why you're pro-school - I already know that you're one of the main cheerleaders!

If you ever finish "questioning the need" or "being in two minds" or whatever and actually decide if you are for or against independent information followed by a democratic vote - do share!

I would have thought that you would see the benefits - not only would this Leaflet "Gary" Gowans you refer to have his false claims rebutted in a non-partisan manner, he would have no recourse to further complaint once a vote was taken.

[Stephen McIntyre]

I believe you are making a wrong assumption about how the anti's would view independent information. However, I do accept that it would be of benefit for the many undecided.

Still not sure about a vote tho'. I can see ahy you want one but it goes agaonst the grain for me. If people disagree with their politicians they should vote them out. JMHO.

[Stephen McIntyre]

I would have thought that you would see the benefits - not only would this Leaflet "Gary" Gowans you refer to have his false claims rebutted in a

That's Gary "Leaflet" Gowans, as in Derek "Del Boy" Trotter.

[Dadaist]

I believe you are making a wrong assumption about how the anti's would view independent information. However, I do accept that it would be of benefit for the many undecided.

Still not sure about a vote tho'. I can see ahy you want one but it goes agaonst the grain for me. If people disagree with their politicians they should vote them out. JMHO.

Well, Bob doesn't seem to think that the community council have acted properly in terms of taking the results of one poll and using them as justification for adopting a position on another - so I just thought it would be fairer if we had a vote. They had one for congestion charging.

Like i said - if decide if you're for or against a vote tell us!

[Stephen McIntyre]

Hi,
I've been asked to comment on my experience of decanting pupils.

My personal experience of decants is not good. In fact, as a primary school teacher with over ten years of experience I would say that it had very damaging effects upon pupils, staff and parents. There were gains, such as support from HQ and lots of resources were provided for us, but nonetheless it was a traumatic expereince.

Pupils lost a minimum 50 mins a day contact time moving from school site to decant site (often it was 60 mins, excluding tidy up time). Conservatively that's over four hours a week...over an average term of 9 weeks - 38.5 hours.

However, the quantity of teaching time was less of an issue than the quality of what was provided. We were all killing ourselves to provide what we should but knew at the same time that it wasn't what we would want to provide in normal circumstances.

The new resources were great but there was no time to become familar with them...from staffroom chat I would say that we (the staff) were all struggling to manage the situation and had grave concerns about the emotional experience of the pupils. Most managed, but frankly "managing" is not what I'd want for a pupil in a school. Some appeared to thrive..enjoying the excitment and making the most of the gaps. Some, perhaps the ones who remain in my mind, were totally lost. Those who were able to communicate their concerns were heard, and some were even moved from the school by concerned parents. The others i can't comment on.

Without a doubt it was one of the worst experiences of my career and I remember thinking at the time "maybe this is what it was like during the war", dramatic as that may sound. Now, I look back on it as a learning experience, but one I experienced as difficult even as an adult with some measure of control, and one I would definitely not want for my own children.

Blue Banana.

Blue Banana
I am very interested to hear of your decant experience. Could you give a bit more background information? Was the decant planned, or in response to an emergency of some sort, and how long were you decanted for? Was it for a total rebuild? Also what quality/type of decant accommodation was provided? Was the location close to the catchment? Was the affected school within Edinburgh, and was a recent experience? How many pupils were affected? Were the pupils as badly affected by the stress as the staff, given that the staff have to deal with the issues, and to some degree the pupils just "go along with it". I would imagine that with the upcoming schools programme in Edinburgh, a number of schools will be facing a decant situation in the near future.

Good post bluebanana and that is quite a lot of questions their KH. Let's hope BB drops by and gives us the answers. Although I believe your last question could be answered by the PP2 info earlier in the thread.

[Bob Jefferson]

so I just thought it would be fairer if we had a vote. They had one for congestion charging.

Yes but the public got that one wrong and I'm not sure we want to trust them with another important decision.

[seanie]

I looked into LIFTs or LEPs (Local Education Partnerships) as being implemented in the “Building Schools for the Futureâ€

[Dadaist]

so I just thought it would be fairer if we had a vote. They had one for congestion charging.

Yes but the public got that one wrong and I'm not sure we want to trust them with another important decision.

I respect your opinion and I guess only history has the potential to absolve them. Social housing stock transfer - whatever you think of the way the vote went - is another example of the council seeking a decision one way or another.

I know that the two examples I have given were both defeats for the Council, but I'm just showing that there is a precedent in holding such a vote.

I think that we should be providing non-partisan, independent and objective analysis of all the options here - if the statutory consultation goes some way to providing this then great!

I also think that we're selling the community short by not giving everyone not only a say, but a vote too - but that's just my opinion.

[Keir Hardie]

I think that we should be providing non-partisan, independent and objective analysis of all the options here - if the statutory consultation goes some way to providing this then great!

I also think that we're selling the community short by not giving everyone not only a say, but a vote too - but that's just my opinion.

The council have a difficult job here determining what the people of Portobello and surrounding wards want. A vote would be a clear measure of the support or otherwise for the proposal, and would provide some assurance to the councillors that they are not going against the wishes of the electorate. Individuals who are not willing to air their views publicly, for fear of upsetting their neighbours/friends would still be able to have their vote counted. It would stop those who shout the loudest muffling those who are quieter in the expression of thier views.

It is not sensible for our councillors to offer a vote every time they need to make a decision - after all we elected them to make decisions, but there are some situations where public opinion is so crucial that it must be measured it in some way, and a vote would certainly achieve that. A vote could be a very important part of the consultation process - quantifiable and objective.

What would the voting boundary be? All wards within the catchments?

[Rex_Mundi]

It's not a secret

Ah yes, but what is a secret, are those "ROSE-CROIX" who appear to have private discussions in closed forums and whom have now been warned not to publish anything online in case their prose are quoted openly.

A crafty bunch perhaps

[Rex_Mundi]

Welcome home Mr M, welcome home.

[Dave Connelly]

The Scottish Power site is slightly larger than than the existing school sites and it is on the periphery of the catchment area, it is not owned by the council, therefore it is deemed unsuitable. Let's call in an independent source to tell us that too

I beleive that that site is being developed by BL Property Developement as are the Ford garage, cottages, standard life site and the football site.

At least I'm sure that is what was said at the community council meeting by their director. It was a wee while ago, I may be mistaken.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Portobellosite, Think I sat beside you at that meeting. I thought that the BL development was restricted to the Scottish Power site. And there was no mention of the other sites in relation to BL . There was an unrelated reference to Laidlaw "if they ever decided to move". However, I may be wrong, I didn't take notes.

As for the football site? It was under offer to Taylor Woodrow but that was some time back and it may have changed.

Here's a map from the BL website indicating the scope of the Portobello development, it clearly shows that the Pitz site is not included. I'm not good at maps but it looks like the development area in red stops before it reaches bailyfield industrial estate.

http://www.bldev.co.uk/projects/default.asp?newsid=13

Portobellosite. earlier on you stated that don't want the school to go the Scotish Power site. Why is that?

[Dadaist]

[quote="Keir Hardie]
It is not sensible for our councillors to offer a vote every time they need to make a decision - after all we elected them to make decisions, but there are some situations where public opinion is so crucial that it must be measured it in some way, and a vote would certainly achieve that. A vote could be a very important part of the consultation process - quantifiable and objective.

What would the voting boundary be? All wards within the catchments?[/quote]

I agree - it needn't be a binding vote as that would interfere with the existing planning procedure - but it would certainly aid Ewan Aitken's "judgement call" whatever way the vote went. I hadn't thought about what the voting boundary should be.

Have Susan Deacon or Gavin Strang commented on this matter? I guess they could cop out by saying it's a council matter.

It would be nice to hear from Maureen and Lawrence too.

[Rex_Mundi]

so I just thought it would be fairer if we had a vote. They had one for congestion charging.

Yes but the public got that one wrong and I'm not sure we want to trust them with another important decision.

“If you have anything really valuable to contribute to the world
it will come through the expression of your own personality,
that single spark of divinity that sets you off and makes you
different from every other living creature.â€

[Dave Connelly]

Portobellosite. earlier on you stated that don't want the school to go the Scotish Power site. Why is that?

What I said was in reply to your post

Stephen McIntyre wrote:


The most pertinent point you make is the scottish power site is 8 acres, which is less than 1 acre bigger than the present site of st johns and phs.

Why should we move the schools there?

I don’t want to move the schools there Stephen, I was pointing out that the Council already knew about the development on the SP site and refrained from telling us when asked about the site as a possibility at the meeting. I was wondering why they didn't mention it. They certainly were aware of it.

In any case, I dont think moving the school to that site is an option unless BL Developements agree to make space in amongst the housing/shops/units/affordable housing which they may put on that site.

Personally I would like to see St Johns re-developed on the current site, utilising the unused tennis courts, and the space from St Bernadettes, (tin building). The high school of course is a more complicated manner.

I want my children to have a good education in reasonably sized classes with adequate classrooms and happy teachers.

They will need a decent high school in a few years time, whether or not that will be the new Holyrood or a new PHS that remains to be seen.

I also want them to have the park to play in/walk around/and golf in, (if they so desire). The choice would be great. Not having the choice would be terrible.

What would you like

[Jbrock]

I posted the PFANS leaflet on 1 March. Here is an updated leaflet advertising our PFANS-organised meeting. on Weds, 22 March at Towerbank school at 2000h.
The purpose of this meeting is for those who support the aims set out in this leaflet to hear more from the council about its proposals and their reasons for proposing modernisation of the schools. We have also invited speakers from the school boards of Portobello High School and St John's.


Poster - please print and display

Our aims and details of forthcoming meeting

EDIT: to fixup link - wangi

[Dadaist]

I posted the PFANS leaflet on 1 March. Here is an updated leaflet advertising our PFANS-organised meeting. on Weds, 22 March at Towerbank school at 2000h.
The purpose of this meeting is for those who support the aims set out in this leaflet to hear more from the council about its proposals and their reasons for proposing modernisation of the schools. We have also invited speakers from the school boards of Portobello High School and St John's.


url=http://www.porty.org.uk/pdf/poster_final.pdf]Poster - please print and display[/url]

Our aims and details of forthcoming meeting

Jbrock

I'm all for meetings and all that, but do I have to support your aims to attend? Can I not just be interested in the issue at hand and promise to behave?

I understand that this is not a public meeting - it's a pro-school meeting and that's fine. But if a church opens its doors to sinners and the unconverted, can I not just turn up and listen to your arguments - or are you insisting that I sign up to this or that first?

I'd like to observe at the anti-school meetings too. Could you not add "and any other interested parties" or something?

[Stephen McIntyre]

I also want them to have the park to play in/walk around/and golf in, (if they so desire). The choice would be great. Not having the choice would be terrible.

Please clarify this for me. Do you mean that if your kids do not have the choice of golfing in Portobello Park, it would be "terrible"?

[Dave Connelly]

Please clarify this for me. Do you mean that if your kids do not have the choice of golfing in Portobello Park, it would be "terrible"?

I am not a golfer, however If my children choose to be then yes, it would be terrible for them to be deprived of a local facility of that nature, which is easily within walking distance of my home.

You haven't answered my question as yet, What do you want

[Bob Jefferson]

I'm all for meetings and all that, but do I have to support your aims to attend? Can I not just be interested in the issue at hand and promise to behave?

I understand that this is not a public meeting - it's a pro-school meeting and that's fine. But if a church opens its doors to sinners and the unconverted, can I not just turn up and listen to your arguments - or are you insisting that I sign up to this or that first?

I can't speak for jbrock but I'm sure that you would be very welcome to attend. I think we should add 'fence-sitters welcome'.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Please clarify this for me. Do you mean that if your kids do not have the choice of golfing in Portobello Park, it would be "terrible"?

I am not a golfer, however If my children choose to be then yes, it would be terrible for them to be deprived of a local facility of that nature, which is easily within walking distance of my home.

Think you require a reality check on the definition of the word terrible.

I'm not a golfer either but I do know that golf involves a lot of walking. I'm guessing if your kids desire is not strong enough for them to walk to Brunstane, they are not going to be golfers. And you are obvioulsy quite content for the kids of Gilberstoun and Brunstane to endure the terror that an average walk can bring should they wish to be golfers. Out of interest; can your kids swim or have you told them they never will as the nearest pool is so far away?

Actually, you don't need to answer any of those questions and I don't wish to fall out with you. Also, I am not avoiding your question, I'm considering a succinct, all encompassing answer.

You probably know that my wife is the PE specialist teacher at St Johns, I'm guessing that's where your kids go. Would you care to describe what the children of St Johns have to do at the moment if their PE teacher wants to give them the benefit of outdoor PE on a day that is warm enough?

[Rex_Mundi]

Think you require a reality check on the definition of the word terrible.

abhorrent, appalling, atrocious, awe-inspiring, awesome, awful, bad, beastly, dangerous, desperate, dire, disastrous, disturbing, dread, dreaded, dreadful, extreme, fearful, frightful, ghastly, gruesome, harrowing, hateful, hideous, horrendous, horrible, horrid, horrifying, inconvenient, loathsome, monstrous, obnoxious, odious, offensive, petrifying, poor, repulsive, revolting, rotten, serious, severe, shocking, unfortunate, unnerving, unpleasant, unwelcome, vile

That would be the definition of the word in question, not a slight in any way on anyone in the forum, what did poor portobellosite do to Mr. M to receive such torturous replies. Although I agree that the use of terrible was either greatly exaggerated or very poor grammar.

What will old portobellosite reply, I wonder
______________________________________________
“This suspense is terrible. I hope it will last.â€

[Dave Connelly]

Think you require a reality check on the definition of the word terrible.

Ok you got me on my use of language.

I’m not going to fall out with anyone on the forum and I await your succinct answer with baited breath.

That would be the definition of the word in question, not a slight in any way on anyone in the forum, what did poor portobellosite do to Mr. M to receive such torturous replies. Although I agree that the use of terrible was either greatly exaggerated or very poor grammar.

You wag you!

[seanie]

I'm all for meetings and all that, but do I have to support your aims to attend? Can I not just be interested in the issue at hand and promise to behave?

I very much doubt there'll be bouncers on the door.

There are probably very few people committed to these proposals. There are too many uncertainties for that. But I think, from what I've heard so far, that the basic proposition sounds reasonable. I would want to know more detail before giving full support.

Most of that detail will not be furnished at the meeting.

Most of that detail doesn't yet exist.

And it may never exist unless this community shows it is willing to consider the proposals and the Council decides to take them further.

The meeting is intended for those who are willing to listen, to hear more about the proposals, to ask questions about them, and hopefully to listen to the answers

Some answers may not be forthcoming, some may be provisional, some may be inadequate, and some may be illuminating. Hopefully it will allow people to make a provisional conclusion as to the merits or otherwise of the proposals as they stand.

The meeting is not intended as another 2-hour barracking from those opposed.

[Jbrock]

PFANS MEETING ON 22 MARCH, 2000H AT TOWERBANK

As the leaflet states - everyone is welcome. However, I think it is helpful if everyone who attends is clear about the reason why we have organised this meeting. This is to help PFANS and its potential supporters develop its views and consider how it wants to progress the aims it has set out in its leaflet. The speakers have been asked to present their views in this context. Of course, we expect people with a range of views to attend and they are welcome but I think the meeting will be more useful for all if we are clear from the start about the reason and purpose of this meeting.
I hope this clarifies matters and reassures people.
Wouldn't it be great if people left this meeting thinking - whatever their views - that was a good, useful meeting, I'm proud to live in Portobello/be a part of the PHS catchment?

[Epykat]

Think you require a reality check on the definition of the word terrible.

Like you do with the word 'suffering'?

[Bob Jefferson]

I think another piece of the jigsaw puzzle was put in place at the LDC meeting tonight when Ewan Aitken gave John Ferrier of Portobello Thistle an assurance that the playing fields would be remaining and that John's long-established football club was very much part of the equation for the re-modelled park. Indeed, there is a great opportunity to extend the great work that John does for the local community through after-hours use of school facilities, including all-weather pitches. If he is smart he will negotiate improved changing facilities as well.

We should be looking to extract the maximum community benefit from every square centimetre of the site that isn't required for housing and we have a unique opportunity to do just that.