New Portobello High School- Where and how?

Discussion and debate on the issues affecting Portobello
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Stephen McIntyre
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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 22 Apr 2006, 17:31

Alison Connelly wrote: Perhaps PFANS need to LISTEN a bit to some of the views being widely expressed by a range of people saying what they feel the park offers, and what they feel the community will lose if it is developed.
Jbrock wrote:Does anyone know how to contact the Portobello Park Action Group? As a supporter of PFANS, I think it would be useful for PFANS and this group to meet and see what scope there is to work together for our community rather than letting the council, Evening News or others, for whatever purposes, divide us.

I am sure there are some aims that we could hold in common. Let's meet and discuss. Members of the Group could reply to me or to pfans@hotmail.co.uk to progress this.
Jackie, did you get a response to your invite?

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Stephen McIntyre
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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 22 Apr 2006, 17:32

Alison Connelly wrote:
Marya wrote:
Alison Connelly wrote: Talking about lies, I find the following extract from the article in the Evening News a sad indication of the way in which PFANS are willing to twist reality to suit their selfish aims

"But another group - Portobello Parents for New Schools - said that the views of only a small minority in the community were put forward at the meeting, with the majority of those in attendance being elderly local residents. "
How is that twisting reality Alison?
It is twisting reality because views of a large cross section of the community were heard at what was a well advertised PUBLIC meeting. There were speakers who represented golfers, parents of school aged children, local residents and those with specialsed knowledge. Comments from the audience included some elderly residents but many younger ones too. Some of the elder commentators drew on their experience of living in the area for many years, bringing their children up here and seeing changes as they happen. NONE of the main speakers were of retirement age, and although I don't suppose there is a demographic breakdown of the audience available, PFANs were clearly not afraid to twist the truth when they professed their view on the make up of the audience.
Marya wrote:And how is promoting two new schools, a new golf course and a new, improved park selfish?
Because the Portobello Park Action Group are supporting the need for new schools, but urging the Council to consider alternatives which will allow the community to have improved school facilities, but ALSO keep the park and golf course( please read the <a href="http://www.PetitionOnline.com/allgreen/ ... etition</a> ), whereas PFANS are determined that the golf course remains the only viable option for schools, and are ignoring the need of the wider community. Even the children will lose out if the Park disappears- they are at school for 190 days a year - 108 of which are from October - March,and 82 are in the summer months. They are out of school for 175,of which 107 are in the summer months (April - September). So they have more time off in the summer, when they can enjoy the great outdoors. I think we ought to leave them some to enjoy.

Also it is ridiculous to say that moving the golf course is in some way alturistic. The golfers don't want a new golf course. They like the one they have.

Finally, saying that we will be left with a "new, improved park" is not so much selfish as utter nonsense. How on earth will it be improved by becoming a fraction of it current size, without the scope it offers at present? That's if there's any park left at all.

Those who have no interest in the current park seem to think that it doesn't matter to anyone else either (hence the tag "selfish"). Perhaps PFANS need to LISTEN a bit to some of the views being widely expressed by a range of people saying what they feel the park offers, and what they feel the community will lose if it is developed.
Alison, did Ian Perry tell you that there would be an £18m shortfall?

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Epykat
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Post by Epykat » 22 Apr 2006, 17:40

Stephen McIntyre wrote:Did they? I missed that.
Not surprised. It doesn't suit your argument so you're bound to have missed it :roll:
Stephen McIntyre wrote:Seriously tho EK, if, as you say, it doesn't matter, why do so many people keep bringing it up?

Now that the truth is widely known, saying it doesn't really mattter is a bit of an about turn, indeed it lacks integrity.
My integrity isn't in question here :wink:. I have, from the beginning, stated where I stand on this argument and I haven't changed my mind one inch. I personally would laugh and laugh and laugh again if there was some legal loophole which stopped the Council building on OUR land and I take my hat off to all these hard working and committed people who have gone to the trouble of trying to find one. Who would be doing the about turns then I wonder?
Enough of your nonsense - get back to the Play Pen!

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Maria
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Post by Maria » 22 Apr 2006, 17:44

Alison Connelly wrote:It is twisting reality because views of a large cross section of the community were heard at what was a well advertised PUBLIC meeting.
Yes, it was a public meeting, but one which had a clear agenda. It was a rallying call to all PPAG's supporters; the leaflet giving details of the meeting was headed 'Save Portobello Park' and the panel of speakers sat in front of a banner proclaiming the same. This was not a public meeting aimed at attracting a wide range of views and let's face it would have been a failure for PPAG if it had!
There were speakers .......with specialsed knowledge.
Yes, I was bemused to hear that Stephen Hawkins had thought that in Scottish Secondary schools teachers came to classes and not vice versa.:wink:
I don't suppose there is a demographic breakdown of the audience available
Seems highly unlikely, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on the make up of the audience.
the Portobello Park Action Group are supporting the need for new schools....
I'm genuinely relieved by that. After all, there are some residents (members of the Community Council for example) who don't think that this is necessary at all.
but urging the Council to consider alternatives which will allow the community to have improved school facilities, but ALSO keep the park and golf course........ whereas PFANS are determined that the golf course remains the only viable option for schools, and are ignoring the need of the wider community.
The PFANS petition states clearly that we do not want the local community to lose out on green space
PFANS website wrote:We call on the Council to bring forward proposals for the redevelopment of Portobello High and St John’s schools.

These new schools should:

- meet the highest design and environmental standards for the 1800 children who attend them

- be in a parkland setting with community access to improved recreational facilities

- involve no overall reduction in the parkland available to the community
I fail to see how these aims are selfish and exclude 'the wider community'.

Even the children will lose out if the Park disappears- ........I think we ought to leave them some to enjoy.
Yes, so do I, which is why I'm glad that the Park won't disappear.
Also it is ridiculous to say that moving the golf course is in some way alturistic. The golfers don't want a new golf course. They like the one they have.
I'm not a golfer so can't comment personally on the attractions of the present course, but I believe from what I've heard most users like it because it is flat and lacks challenging features. Sounds to me that this would be pretty easy to replicate on a new site. However, perhaps they might have more users and members if it wasn't so much of a 'pitch and putt' course ( a description I've heard applied to it by a golfer when asked why he doesn't use the course) ?

Those who have no interest in the current park seem to think that it doesn't matter to anyone else either (hence the tag "selfish"). Perhaps PFANS need to LISTEN a bit to some of the views being widely expressed by a range of people saying what they feel the park offers, and what they feel the community will lose if it is developed.


I freely admit that I've never used Portobello Park, but I like open space as much as the next resident. However, I'll sacrifice some of it if it means that thousands of local children get the benefit of two new schools.

I've heard people suggest alternatives, but until I hear of a credible alternative which can secure funding, I'll continue backing the one proposal which can deliver two new schools for Portobello.
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Post by Epykat » 22 Apr 2006, 17:49

Alison Connelly wrote:Even the children will lose out if the Park disappears- they are at school for 190 days a year - 108 of which are from October - March,and 82 are in the summer months. They are out of school for 175,of which 107 are in the summer months (April - September). So they have more time off in the summer, when they can enjoy the great outdoors. I think we ought to leave them some to enjoy.
Added to which, out of a lifetime which could span 95 years+ (in the case of one of my local relatives), a mere 4-6 years of that will be spent at High School - with or without playing fields.

Alison Connelly wrote:Finally, saying that we will be left with a "new, improved park" is not so much selfish as utter nonsense. How on earth will it be improved by becoming a fraction of it current size, without the scope it offers at present? That's if there's any park left at all.

Those who have no interest in the current park seem to think that it doesn't matter to anyone else either (hence the tag "selfish"). Perhaps PFANS need to LISTEN a bit to some of the views being widely expressed by a range of people saying what they feel the park offers, and what they feel the community will lose if it is developed.
I agree.
Enough of your nonsense - get back to the Play Pen!

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Stephen McIntyre
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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 22 Apr 2006, 17:51

Alison Connelly wrote: It is twisting reality because views of a large cross section of the community were heard at what was a well advertised PUBLIC meeting. There were speakers who represented golfers, parents of school aged children, local residents and those with specialsed knowledge.
I really do wonder why you bothered to have or invite all those diverse people, when you had Green Dream on your side.
Green Dream in her letter to Lamont wrote: I speak for the majority of the citizens of Portobello


Say what?

Alison Connelly wrote: Comments from the audience included some elderly residents but many younger ones too. Some of the elder commentators drew on their experience of living in the area for many years, bringing their children up here and seeing changes as they happen. NONE of the main speakers were of retirement age, and although I don't suppose there is a demographic breakdown of the audience available,
It is pity that there is no demographic breakdown available, however there has been a photo published above that may give a rough idea. Was there a large contingent of potential members of the youth section that is due to appear after a 150 ( :wink: ) Year abscence?

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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 22 Apr 2006, 17:52

Epykat wrote:. Who would be doing the about turns then I wonder?
Well we do have to abide by the law. 8)

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Post by Epykat » 22 Apr 2006, 17:55

Stephen McIntyre wrote:
Epykat wrote:. Who would be doing the about turns then I wonder?
Well we do have to abide by the law. 8)
And all is fair in love and war after all :D
Enough of your nonsense - get back to the Play Pen!

Alison Connelly

Post by Alison Connelly » 22 Apr 2006, 18:42

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Alison Connelly

Post by Alison Connelly » 22 Apr 2006, 18:48

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Post by Maria » 22 Apr 2006, 18:58

Alison Connelly wrote:
Marya wrote: Yes, so do I, which is why I'm glad that the Park won't disappear.
Can you please remind me where the houses to fund the schools are to be built? And the schools themselves? And the all weather pitch, which will of course be fenced with access restricted? :)
The answer lies in the Council's Questions and Answers Document which gives the following information.

What will happen to the current golf course?

It is estimated that the two new schools will account for around one third of the current golf course. The existing park will not be affected.

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Post by Maria » 22 Apr 2006, 19:04

Alison Connelly wrote:
Marya wrote:Yes, I was bemused to hear that Stephen Hawkins had thought that in Scottish Secondary schools teachers came to classes and not vice versa.
What he actually said was that he USED to think this, but now realised this was not the case. You've taken his comment completely out of context which is misleading to people who might believe this or some of your other comments :wink:
Didn't mean to give the impression that Stephen thought that on the night which is why I used 'had thought' rather than 'thought' but point taken. Makes me wonder if Stephen is approaching retirement age tho'. :wink: :lol:
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Post by Bob Jefferson » 22 Apr 2006, 20:26

PFANS supporters collect signatures for their petition on Porty High Street this morning.

Image

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Stephen McIntyre
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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 23 Apr 2006, 04:01

Bob what a great picture. Is that young people collecting a signature from an elderly person? And what is the young lady in the background doing, attempting to sit on the fence? :lol:

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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 23 Apr 2006, 04:21

Alison Connelly wrote: And the all weather pitch, which will of course be fenced with access restricted? :)
Alison this is the type of statement that weakens your argument (if that is possible?) and is, quite frankly, moronic. PE facilities are fenced off for very good reasons, here's just three:

Fencing stops members of the public walking through the "classroom". You surely must be aware of this happening at St Johns.

Fencing prevents dogs from defecating in a childrens play area.

Fencing provides security for children, especially young children, it makes it harder for them to stray or be snatched.

But hey go ahead and paint it as a negative, the evil council are at it again :roll: :roll: :roll:

Alison Connelly

Post by Alison Connelly » 23 Apr 2006, 07:16

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Post by Dave Connelly » 23 Apr 2006, 09:01

Stephen McIntyre wrote: But you are not going to defend any of the above statements are you?
Which statements :?:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
<a href="http://www.portygreenkeepers.org.uk">SAVE LOTS OF GREEN</a>

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Stephen McIntyre
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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 23 Apr 2006, 12:12

[quote="Alison Connelly". And you call me moronic :D[/quote]

Actually, I didn't call you moronic. However, if you look at the time I was posting, there is more chance that I was moronic,

BTW what on earth were you doing up at 6:15???

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Post by PortyMan » 23 Apr 2006, 14:09

Sorry for the delay, I've been otherwise occupied (and what a lot's gone on while I was! :roll: )
Stephen McIntyre wrote:"I paid a premium to always have a park view" [/i]another falsehood from Portyman.

"180 people use Portobello Golf Course on almost every day of the year" -another faslehood from Portyman

I could go on.
Neither of these quotes are accurate.

I said...

"... selected this area from a variety of alternatives, largely, but not simply, because it overlooks the park and golf course – an ideal situation to raise a family in our view. We did, of course, pay a premium for this, but were happy to do so."

and

"...considerably more than 120 people do so [use the golf course], almost every day of the year - the course only closes Xmas and New Year, weather closures excepted. " (The 120 being a reference to the membership of Portobello Golf Club).

Substantially different from your twisted interpretation. :?

You still seem to believe you don't pay more for a house with a park view than one with, say a view of an electricity power plant? Then maybe your grasp of the property market hasn't improved any since you "stopped being 'in the business' in 1991"?

(You never did post what you do these days... I have since learned, but in the spirit of the forum I will retain that piece of information to myself. :lol: )


"I could go on" - That's the problem, you do. :)

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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 23 Apr 2006, 15:19

This is among my favourite quotes of yours:
PortyMan wrote:Besides, the school senior football team are currently top of their very competitive league, and despite taking a Higher in Physical Education my son travels to the Jack Kane centre only once a week (and has never regarded this as an issue). So why not re-use the current site? If the playing fields ‘thing’ is the only argument, then it falls there.
Isn’t it ironic.?
Alison Connelly wrote: PFANS are willing to twist reality to suit their selfish aims

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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 23 Apr 2006, 15:22

PortyMan wrote: "...considerably more than 120 people do so [use the golf course], almost every day of the year - the course only closes Xmas and New Year, weather closures excepted. " (The 120 being a reference to the membership of Portobello Golf Club).

Substantially different from your twisted interpretation. :?
So when you said considerably more than 120 people per day [use the golf course], how many did you mean? I need to know the number to qualify your "substantially different" statement.

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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 23 Apr 2006, 15:36

PortyMan wrote: You still seem to believe you don't pay more for a house with a park view than one with, say a view of an electricity power plant? Then maybe your grasp of the property market hasn't improved any since you "stopped being 'in the business' in 1991"?

(You never did post what you do these days... I have since learned, but in the spirit of the forum I will retain that piece of information to myself. :lol: )
"I could go on" - That's the problem, you do. :)
Laying aside your total misrepresentation of what I said regardng the saleability of properties with an open view. I would say the rest of your statement is way too personal and quite insulting. We have met and chatted on a couple of occassions, there is no need for you to be so offensive.

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Post by PortyMan » 23 Apr 2006, 19:04

Stephen McIntyre wrote:
PortyMan wrote: "...considerably more than 120 people do so [use the golf course], almost every day of the year - the course only closes Xmas and New Year, weather closures excepted. " (The 120 being a reference to the membership of Portobello Golf Club).

Substantially different from your twisted interpretation. :?
So when you said considerably more than 120 people per day [use the golf course], how many did you mean? I need to know the number to qualify your "substantially different" statement.
I belive the figure given for annual 'tee-times' allocated was in the region of 33,000? Not sure if this includes those allocated to the membership of Portobello Golf Club? However, the course is a public course and anyone - even you - can turn up, pay and play. The course is used all year round, though admittedly more so in the summer. You tried to imply that I said more than '180' used it every day - which is a willful misinterpretation of what I said.
Stephen McIntyre wrote: This is among my favourite quotes of yours:
PortyMan wrote:
Besides, the school senior football team are currently top of their very competitive league, and despite taking a Higher in Physical Education my son travels to the Jack Kane centre only once a week (and has never regarded this as an issue). So why not re-use the current site? If the playing fields ‘thing’ is the only argument, then it falls there.
Isn’t it ironic.?
Stephen McIntyre wrote:
Alison Connelly wrote: PFANS are willing to twist reality to suit their selfish aims
Not sure what your point is here? The school football team have, in fact, won their league (with a game to spare). The JK problem seems to stem from travel time... surely a solution could be found that didn't involve building a duplicate sports facility less than a mile away? If it's a problem once a week, is it really a major issue? Maybe they could use JK for a double period? But, as I say, I don't see what your point is?
Stephen McIntyre wrote: ...the rest of your statement is way too personal and quite insulting. We have met and chatted on a couple of occassions, there is no need for you to be so offensive
I take it you're being sardonic/ironic here? :lol:

However, if you really did feel slighted, I apologise. I guess I felt that if you could 'deal it', you could 'deal with it'. I was wrong (again), I shall try to be more sensitive to your feelings in any future postings.

(However, I don't recall ever meeting/conversing with you? I can only assume this was some time ago, briefly? Was alcohol involved? Were we formally introduced?)

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Post by Jbrock » 24 Apr 2006, 00:13

I'm surprised and disappointed by some of the responses on the Forum following last week's PPAG meeting. To the collective surprise of most in the audience, the council announced the intention to consult on three options for the relocation of Portobello High School and St John's. Shouldn't this be welcomed as a victory for all who care about new schools and our local facilities? Doesn't this provide a real opportunity to work together to identify the right site, design and facilities for these schools within a parkland setting? Doesn't this even suggest that PPAG and PFANS could merge?

I don't think anyone could disagree that the PPAG meeting was very well chaired with heartfelt contributions from local residents and golf course members. Important arguments were made about the environmental impact of relocation of the schools which must not be ignored.

However, I suggest that PPAGs commitment to new schools seemed superficial as we listened to Steven (I didn't catch his surname) speaking on the PPAG platform.

He appeared to have no connection or direct knowledge of either school but pronounced that he had seen some feasibility study for the redevelopment of St John's, which he declared "excellent". He omitted to mention how old the study was; that it has never been circulated to all parents; whether it contains provision for much needed gym facilities or any other educational benefits of the study. We did not hear that the school board had been campaigning for years for more investment or that the head had written in the school newsletter that the Council's proposals provided the opportunity to provide the children with the education they deserve in the 21st century.

Turning to the High School, I think he quoted selectively from the PP2 application but that is his prerogative (I'll take this opportunity to repeat that only three schools ranked worse on "fitness for purpose" and only two schools ranked worse for "condition" - this was omitted from his speech). The breathtaking part of his contribution was his announcement that while the building was pulled down and replaced with yet another multi storey building, the 1,400 pupils could be put in portacabins in another park (I think it was Figgate). No mention of the impact this would have on the education of the children or on staff morale.

I am sure this speaker sincerely believed that this proposal provides a way forward. But I think it demonstrates that PPAG really needs to enter into a wider discussion with groups like the school boards, the PTAs, PFANS and others to get a realistic view of how it can achieve its goal of new schools in the community.

Alison Connelly

Post by Alison Connelly » 24 Apr 2006, 13:23

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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 24 Apr 2006, 14:26

Alison Connelly wrote:I noticed for the first time that PFANS statement asserts :
"Approximately half of the whole park area would be involved with about a third of that area being used for the school, a third remaining as parkland and a third being used for housing. "

I think it is very important (especially in light of the "lieflets" allegations) that we point out that this is not correct. The proposal to develop on Portobello Park applies to the entire site - not just half of it. The whole site is about 52 acres. A third of a half of this would be only 8.66 acres - smaller than the schools currently have.
Here we go again.

Alison, what is your interpretation of the PFAN's statement "Approximately half of the whole park area would be involved"? And how did PFANS arrive at that figure?

And what is your interpretation of the PPAG' s statement "This would result in at least two-thirds of the park being built on"? And how did PPag's arrive at their figure?

Edit, added question.

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Post by Maria » 24 Apr 2006, 14:36

From today's 'Evening News':
Lack of respect wins no support

Of course the PFANS spokesperson was not showing disrespect for the views of Portobello's elderly residents. The elderly have an indisputable right to express their views (in fact, the power of the 'grey vote' is becoming quite a political force to contend with, in these days of growing political apathy ). One cannot argue with the fact, however, that as a group they are a statistical minority in the Portobello area (19.6% according to Edinburgh's Census 2001) and yet they were in the majority at the meeting, which is what was pointed out.

edit: added 'an'
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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 24 Apr 2006, 14:44

Totally correct Marya. Also, a meeting of 200 to 250 people from a community of 36,000 is a tiny minority regardless of the demographic make up. I make it 7/10ths of 1%

Do the math.

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Post by Stephen McIntyre » 24 Apr 2006, 14:57

Portyman, i met you twice at your neigbbour's barbeque. The only reason I remember it so clearly is I have known Mrs Portyman since she was at Heriot Watt or maybe she wasn't at HW? In any case we knew people in common. I also handed you a leaflet at the PHS meeting, which I found ironic and enjoyable.

I was being neither sardonic nor ironic, there is no need to be so personal, none.

Lets take our issues one at a time, agreed?
PortyMan wrote:You tried to imply that I said more than '180' used it every day - which is a willful misinterpretation of what I said.
I agree that I claimed you said 180 people per day use the golf course on most days of the year. As you say, your claim was that considerably more than the 120 members used the course on most days of the year.

Now you say that I have willfully misinterpreted you. Tell me Portyman, have I over or under-interpreted what you meant when you said considerably more than 120 people use the course on most days of the year?

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Post by Tom Ballantine » 24 Apr 2006, 18:28

In reference to Alison Connelly's comments on the Pfans web site I feel I should set the record straight.The passage she puts in quotes as coming from Pfans was not a direct quote but the words of the reporter based on his reading of the conversation he had with a member of pfans.As far as I am aware the word "elderly" was not used by anyone from pfans although I am told a comment was made on the age profile of the audience being older.

I am unhappy at selective quotations from the text of a talk I gave posted on the pfans web site where I prefaced the comments referred to by emphasising on each occasion that this is what 'we are told' and, at the end of the section quoted , stated:

"We all want the opportunity to check the accuracy of what we are told.If it is accurate how do we meet the needs of the community?"

in particular it is disingenuous to miss out the critical words"we are advised" before the reference to "that the best option" ie to suggest a view came from us when it is made clear the view did not come from us.

The article reflected my understanding at the time of writing and is clearly dated at the end. I go on to say at the end

"Some of the press coverage has tried to portray Portobello as a community torn apart by this issue.That is not the case and should not be allowed to become the case.If people believe the facts will show the costs to be too great for the benefit to be gained or visa versa they have nothing to fear from open and honest enquiry."

I believe honesty and looking at the facts should be the aim of everyone in this difficult process.From that point of view I was disappointed to be handed a standardised letter stating "I speak for the majority of the citizens of Portobello" to be sent out by those against consideration of the park for a school.That is a big unsupported assertion which should not have been made.I am quite prepared to believe that most of the people involved in this discussion want honesty. and I also believe that would be the best thing for the community.

If quotes are to be used from what I have written could I ask that they be quoted accurately and fairly.I do not intend to comment further as my keyboard skills are not up to it!

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Post by Rex_Mundi » 24 Apr 2006, 21:52

Stephen McIntyre wrote:Totally correct Marya. Also, a meeting of 200 to 250 people from a community of 36,000 is a tiny minority regardless of the demographic make up. I make it 7/10ths of 1%

Do the math.
How about the New Wembly Stadium for your next meeting Mr M :?: :D
Should get the 36,000 in there :D :D
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pip pip

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Post by Rex_Mundi » 24 Apr 2006, 21:54

Stephen McIntyre wrote: Lets take our issues one at a time, agreed?
Well done :!:
[b]Cogito, ergo sum[/b]

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Rex_Mundi
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Location: portobello

Re: portobello high school

Post by Rex_Mundi » 24 Apr 2006, 22:06

We are told that you are an excellent speaker Tom, welcome to the world’s most bizarre conversation.
Few things are more pleasant than a village graced with a good church, a good priest and a good pub.
John Hillaby

Unfortunately, this particular village would appear to have none.
[b]Cogito, ergo sum[/b]

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Dadaist
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Location: on the fringes of Portobello

Post by Dadaist » 24 Apr 2006, 23:49

Marya wrote: Of course the PFANS spokesperson was not showing disrespect for the views of Portobello's elderly residents.
Somehow I doubt if you would be taking this line if the shoe were on the other foot, and the antis had said something ageist. You, Porty and Bob would be frothing at your collective mouths.

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Dadaist
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Location: on the fringes of Portobello

Re: portobello high school

Post by Dadaist » 24 Apr 2006, 23:51

Rex_Mundi wrote:We are told that you are an excellent speaker Tom, welcome to the world’s most bizarre conversation.
Few things are more pleasant than a village graced with a good church, a good priest and a good pub.
John Hillaby

Unfortunately, this particular village would appear to have none.
I bagsie being the idiot though.

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