New Schools Proposal - The Wider Issues

Discussion and debate on the issues affecting Portobello
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Dave Connelly
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Post by Dave Connelly » 03 May 2006, 22:05

Stephen McIntyre wrote:60 years is a long-time in the future. Perhaps by that stage a large proportion of children's learning will happen remotely and be PC based. So maybe we won't need such big schools? There are too many unknown factors for the "where in 60 years" debate to have any real worth.
I think the council were thinking about the remote learning thing, not sure how it went though

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Post by Dadaist » 03 May 2006, 22:13

Gilo wrote:
Dadaist wrote:I want to know where the houses to fund the new school's refurbishment should be built using the funding model suggested by the council and promoted by PFANS.
Where have PFANS promoted the funding model?
By giving the plan the nod. It's like a rubber stamp of community approval.

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Post by seanie » 03 May 2006, 22:22

Huh?

A particular group of local people organise to argue that the outline proposals should be developed further, and that represents the promotion of a particular funding model?

How utterly absurd.

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Post by Dave Connelly » 03 May 2006, 22:56

seanie wrote:
A particular group of local people organise to argue that the outline proposals should be developed further, and that represents the promotion of a particular funding model?
Seanie, where do you lie on this issue, do you think that the council should build on the park or not :?:

P.S.

I am glad that you are back, the postings were getting a bit on the short side :wink: :wink: :D
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Post by seanie » 04 May 2006, 08:09

Can anyone guess?

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Post by seanie » 04 May 2006, 20:09

No takers?

Ok I’ll explain where I’m coming from, leaving the issue of funding aside.

I know very little personally about the condition of either PHS or St Johns, but given their age I’d be surprised if they were fit for purpose by today’s standards. PHS in particular. Virtually all buildings from the 60’s fall vastly short of what’s now expected in terms of function, environmental performance, accessibility etc and most are approaching or have reached their natural life span. That life can be extended, but it’s not a cheap or easy option, and has to be considered against the end result.

In the case of PHS refurbishment sounds a bad idea. It would be disruptive and expensive, incurring the cost of an extended decant, and at the end of the day you’d have a building hugely constrained by its form and site. High rise, as well as being costly, inherently restricts flexibility and adaptability because the demands of structure, services and circulation impose massive constraints. And the site is fundamentally too small, ostrich like attempts to deny it notwithstanding.

Which is why rebuilding on site is pretty much a non-starter. It may have been the initial proposal for PPP2 but I can’t imagine it would’ve survived detailed scrutiny. The site is too small to build a new school without demolishing the old one first, so you’d still incur the cost and disruption of an extended decant. And the limitations of the site would compromise the design of the replacement. It would be difficult to avoid another high-rise solution with the attendant problems already mentioned. There’d be little sense in going to the huge expense and disruption of replacing the school if at the end of the day the new school would be fundamentally compromised by the inadequacy of the site.

So if you’re looking to replace PHS, and at some point you’ll have to, you’re really looking for a new site. But that’s not easy because schools do require a large amount of space. With sustainability in mind the preferred choice might be a brown-field site. But all the brown-field sites suggested so far are either too small, poorly located, not in Council ownership or frequently all three. They’re non-starters.

Only a lunatic would build a school at Seafield Road Bus Depot.

So whenever PHS is replaced, be it now, in 5 or 10 years time, and however it’s funded, you’ll be looking for a greenfield site, large enough to accommodate both schools and playing fields, that’s in the catchment area and in council ownership.

The shortlist of sites meeting those requirements is indeed short. It gets even shorter when you take planning considerations into account.

There is no way in hell you’d get to build it at Calvary Park.

The Planning dept would be against because it would encroach on greenbelt and their aspiration for a green corridor to the heart of the city. The Education dept would be against because two large schools in close proximity would be a management nightmare. The Transport dept would be against it because it would cause traffic chaos. And I can’t imagine the locals up at Duddingston would be ringing the bells in joyous anticipation. In short the number of people in favour of such a proposal will be dwarfed by the number who think it a really, really bad idea. It’s not going to happen.

Similarly building at Brunstane faces problems. As a general rule I think that building schools outwith their catchment area is frowned upon. But leaving that aside the Planners won’t be keen. I’m still unaware of the exact boundaries and designation of the land involved but if, as I understand it, most of the land is greenbelt then most of the land is very difficult to develop. Not impossible mind. If you put forward a very good case, that it was the ideal site and there was no alternative, then the planners might be persuaded. But since it’s clearly a crappy idea and there’s at least one obvious alternative, I can’t imagine they’ll be convinced.

I think, when it really comes down to it, you’ve probably got a choice between two sites for a new PHS. Either PGC or the Jewel. Of those I’d prefer PGC. It’s close to the centre of the catchment and the existing schools, which would make relocating St John’s in particular easier.

Both Portobello Park and the Jewel will have planning protection as Open Space and because of their playing fields. That protection will not prohibit development but it does mean the benefits of any proposals will be judged quite strictly against loss of amenity. I think in those terms developing on Portobello Park is preferable, primarily because the golf-course can be relocated.

For me that’s the key. Moving the golf-course up to greenbelt land at Brunstane doesn’t present a significant planning hurdle. Yes it’s further away which will inconvenience some people. But the vast majority of golfers drive to the course and if you’re not playing golf you’re not really supposed to be wandering about it anyway. I’m in no doubt that many people have a significant attachment to the golf-course where it is. But in terms of actual usage I don’t think relocating represents a significant loss of amenity. And it frees up a huge amount of land. Enough land that amenity could actually be enhanced.

In terms of sports and recreation I’d absolutely expect amenity to be enhanced by new schools. I’d expect the community to benefit from more, better and more varied facilities. But because moving the golf-course frees up so much land I’d also expect a sizeable public park to remain that could be of considerable value despite the loss to development. Be it an eco-park or a nature reserve I think there’s the potential for a public green space of more interest and use than the barren expanse of close cropped grass that Portobello Park is at the moment.

Even with the development of housing.

I know I said I’d leave aside the issue of funding but it is another reason why I prefer PGC as the site.

Ideally I’d like to see new schools funded directly through progressive redistributive taxation or via public borrowing. However the prospects of that any time soon are slim. I suppose we could put aside our differences and work together to make it a reality. And after we’ve succeeded we can bring a just peace to Israel-Palestine, end world hunger, reverse global warming, and ensure ponies for all.

However if you’re actually looking to replace the schools any time soon funding options are somewhat limited. The council doesn’t have the revenue streams or capital budget to fund such proposals outright, certainly not given all the other schools across the city that also require attention, and their ability to borrow is constrained by central government. I suppose we could put aside our differences and campaign for a huge increase in our council tax. But I’m not sure support will be unanimous.

Failing that you’re looking at PPP or self-financing. I’d put PPP close to the bottom of my preferred sources of funding. I think PPP delivers, more often than not, crap buildings at extortionate expense but you may be able to go down that route if you really want to. However you may be waiting some time. Another round of PPP is not in the gift of local authorities. If and when it does happen it’ll be at the behest of central government. Given the rise in public borrowing, the repeated shortfalls in tax revenues and the hidden liabilities coming on stream of all the PPP projects already embarked upon, another large wave of PPP may be some time off.

So if you’re looking to actually replace the schools in a timeframe you have some control over, then you’re looking for a significant element of self-financing; the realisation of assets. I think that’s probably best achieved by housing development.

I confess that the prospect of housing doesn’t fill me with the same dread as some. Even (shock, horror) affordable housing. There is a shortfall and I don’t think building homes is a bad thing per se (although the output of some of our volume house builders could persuade me otherwise.) However since the prevailing opinion appears to be that housing is indeed a bad thing I’d suggest it be seen as the cost incurred to obtain the benefit of new schools. And to my mind, whilst costs and benefits rarely fall entirely equitably, they should be closely linked.

I’d regard new schools as, potentially, of great benefit not just to the pupils who will attend but to the surrounding community. I’d be more doubtful of that if the project were funded by PPP, but with sufficient funds, time, care and a commitment to quality I think it’d be possible to develop a real asset. And I think the community that reaps those benefits should also bear the costs.

It’s been suggested to me that the housing would be better built somewhere else in Edinburgh entirely. To my mind that’s fundamentally unfair. It’s an attempt to derive benefits whilst offloading the costs onto someone else. Even developing the housing elsewhere within the catchment leaves me uneasy. Put the housing up at the Jewel and you could pay for new schools down here in Portobello. The people who live round the Jewel would lose local amenity. They’d derive some benefit from the new schools but the facilities would hardly be on their doorstep. I think they’d be bearing a cost disproportionate to their likely benefit.

That’s why I quite like the proposals for Portobello Park. It ties up costs and benefits in one package.

Portobello Park is the only viable site in the entire catchment large enough to sustain the development of new schools with playing fields, the housing to help fund them, and still have a sizeable public green space left over.

Now I still think that much depends on the detail of what’s proposed, but add in the fact that the golf-course would be relocated rather than lost and that strikes me as not a bad deal. It’s not entirely fair. Some people will derive greater benefits than costs, others greater costs than benefits. Some will bear no cost and only benefit and vice versa. But that’s inevitable whatever happens.

Overall, the proposal to develop on Portobello Park seems reasonably equitable to me.

For new schools to be built any time soon I think a better deal is unlikely.

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Post by Poppy » 04 May 2006, 20:59

I am glad that you are back, the postings were getting a bit on the short side :wink: :wink: :D


The thing about Seanie's long posts is that they are informative and balanced!!

And as a BTW , why is not a lot being said about the fact that we would still have Figgate Park? It is quite big and has more character to my mind - and more ducks!! :duckie:

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Post by Bob Jefferson » 04 May 2006, 23:47

Seanie (and everyone else), I have copied over your last message to the main thread. Dada's idea for a new thread to deal with the wider issues thrown up by the new schools proposals is a welcome one, though I personally believe that it belongs on the general forum as these issues are not specific to Portobello.

However, the problem with inter-related threads is that they almost always end up crossing over. You may have noticed that we have already begun to rationalise the ten new schools threads by merging some of them recently.

To avoid this situation can we please try to maintain thread discipline. This thread deals with the wider issues, the main thread deals with the specifics of new schools for Portobello.

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Post by Dadaist » 05 May 2006, 08:45

Bob Jefferson wrote:I personally believe that it belongs on the general forum as these issues are not specific to Portobello.
You're wrong. You need to re-read my initial post on this thread and stop talking, and thinking, with your shirt.

This thread concerns the wider issues thrown up by the PHS/St Johns proposal.

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Post by Dadaist » 13 Sep 2006, 07:34

In Defence Of Portobello Park Action Group

Recently, the local media have carried discussion over whether the recent tactical shift in thinking by pressure group PPAG constitutes an approach which lacks integrity. I don't think it does.

bomb

During the last century, terrorist groups which renounced violence were applauded in the main when they did so. The ANC, IRA and PLO all became political movements (with varying degrees of success) - but save a few militants in their own ranks (and perhaps a few who opposed them and didn't want to give up fighting) they were applauded when they took action which seemed to go against their founding ethos.

viable

So it is with PPAG. By renouncing environmentalism, they have not only answered the difficult initial question posed by POL's famous "Schools" thread but also worked, as Adams and Arafat did, to further their cause.

When the POL "Schools" thread started, a much-asked question was "do you have a viable alternative?" (to the initial council plan). PPAG seem to think they do. Even if, for a variety of technical reasons, it turns out not to fit the criteria of viability, PPAG should be applauded for their thinking, not derided for a perceived "lack of integrity".

Figgate

The internal politics of PPAG will no doubt be tense - there may yet be schisms, bloodletting and perhaps the formation of splinter groups like Real PPAG and perhaps the Figgate Park Action Group. The surviving PPAG leadership who see no error in renouncing environmentalism should not be subject to criticism for an act of political maturity.

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Post by Porty » 13 Sep 2006, 09:02

Dadaist wrote: Figgate

The internal politics of PPAG will no doubt be tense - there may yet be schisms, bloodletting and perhaps the formation of splinter groups like Real PPAG and perhaps the Figgate Park Action Group. The surviving PPAG leadership who see no error in renouncing environmentalism should not be subject to criticism for an act of political maturity.
You may well be right about all of the above. Who knows what's going on internally? I know you are trying to balance the arguments here on POL as there appears to be more voices against the PPAG position than for. You are calling the latest development an "act of political maturity". What if it was just one or two individuals that went through the councils report and picked holes in every place that they could without thinking of the consequences? Or does that not matter now that PPAG have gone public and backed the position.

One thing that may not yet have occurred to PPAG is that the their petition which is titled in big print "Loss of Green Space in Portobello" (I have copies) is not worth the paper its written on, now that the petitioning organisation are simultaneously advocating building schools in a park in Portobello.

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Post by Dadaist » 13 Sep 2006, 09:46

I don't disagree. The public utterances of an organisation don't, I'm sure, always represent unimaity of thought amongst their members - rather, the reflection of an internal power struggle. This is how foreign analysts have worked out who is and isn't in favour in totalitarian regimes whose only contact with the outside world is propaganda - they pick through it and try and work out who is and isn't mentioned this week.

There may yet be a counter-coup, where the current position of PPAG is denounced as heresy, and the green fingers throttle the nascent windpipe of anti-environmentalism. Such is the daily cut and thrust of local pressure group politics. I would imagine.

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Post by bbbrown » 13 Sep 2006, 10:24

This, in my view, is just getting very silly.....
Negative Campaigning at its finest, from Stephen McIntyre, Bob, and the rest of the PFANS lobby.
As far as i can see Portobello Park Action Group is asking that Figgate Park be part of the consultation process, not demanding St Johns goes there, as PFANS is demanding the development of Portobello Park. More concerned with questioning why the Council has dismissed pretty much every alternative but the favoured Portobello Park option. Why are PFANS anything other than pleased? Why not just concentrate on their own campaign rather than attack, attack, attack on the PPAG campaign. If PFANS have such a good case and a real desire for a "fair share of green space for all" and "schools in a park", why not promote that, rather than just concentrating on running down PPAG?

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Post by Dadaist » 13 Sep 2006, 10:33

Why not just concentrate on their own campaign rather than attack, attack, attack on the PPAG campaign.
Exactly right bb. Gandhi they ain't.

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Post by Porty » 13 Sep 2006, 10:35

bbbrown wrote: Why are PFANS anything other than pleased? Why not just concentrate on their own campaign rather than attack, attack, attack on the PPAG campaign.
I don't speak for PFANS. If PPAG had integrity and used factual data and arguments then there would be nothing to pick them up on. PPAG have basically been caught with their pants down and not just by me, Ros was asked some blunt questions at yesterdays meeting. I don't think PPAG's double standards esacped anyone on the council executive.

Edit: pants for till

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Post by bbbrown » 13 Sep 2006, 10:49

Stephen, In my opinion you speak very well for PFANS. At least when you concentrate on the issue of schools your points have some merit. I find the constant sniping at PPAGS very negative though, and it just serves to polarise the community rather than being constructive. And you dont, in my opinion, have the monopoly on integrity. I know people on both groups who have that particular quality.....

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Post by Dadaist » 13 Sep 2006, 11:00

Porty wrote: I don't speak for PFANS.
Gerry Adams didn't speak for the IRA, but he shared their aims - wouldn't you agree?

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Post by Porty » 13 Sep 2006, 11:07

bbbrown wrote: Stephen, In my opinion you speak very well for PFANS. ...
You are entitled to your opinion but I don't speak for PFANS.
bbbrown wrote: I find the constant sniping at PPAGS very negative though, and it just serves to polarise the community rather than being constructive. .....
What you call "sniping" is neither negative or positive it is just real. Personally I am not going to stand by and let a group or a person just make up stuff or not check the integrity of their data to support an argument to restrict the education opportunity of the children of this community.

It is quite apparent that PPAG do not want to deal in fact. Every time they are challenged they either retrreat or want to take the argument away from fact into the personal.

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Post by Porty » 13 Sep 2006, 11:21

Dadaist wrote:
Porty wrote: I don't speak for PFANS.
Gerry Adams didn't speak for the IRA, but he shared their aims - wouldn't you agree?
I don't know.

Jackie Brock and Tom Ballantyne speak on behalf of PFANS but only when asked or nominated. It has obvioulsy escaped yourself and bbbrowns notice that I have only ever challenged PPAG on the basis statements or claims they make on literature they have distributed, their website and what their chair person has said in the press, having identified herself as the chair person.

If I dare challenge: I rarely have to defend a counter argument, almost invariiably the facts are on my side. You know me, if I am proved wrong I will concede and if needed I apologise.

If I dare challenge, I am piloroed as a sniper and much worse by PPAG supporters. Personally speaking I believe that's often the only response available to them.

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Post by Dadaist » 13 Sep 2006, 12:37

When are the next council elections, and to what extent does anyone think they will be a referendum on the schools plan?

Does anyone think that Maureen Child's careful wording is partly because she has a divided electorate?

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Post by bbbrown » 04 Oct 2006, 12:10

I think the key to this whole issue is still the funding question, (you know the one nobody mentions any more)....our resident expert seanie has always been totally up front about the fact that to get new schools any time soon means moving the golf course and turning the existing site over to housing.
What is, at present, a large, green area will soon be no more. Now this may mean little to the residents of Portobello, with their fine beach and sea views and protected leafy parks, but if you actually live around Milton, Magdalene, etc, it is actually a distinct bummer.
Will it translat to votes? Who knows. I think, despite all the PFANS spin, that the thousands of people who have signed the petition against losing green space in Portobello will not be best pleased at being completely ignored. And as one of them, I know who I will not be voting for come the local elections next year....

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Post by Porty » 04 Oct 2006, 12:21

Bbb I believe there is a chance of cross-party agreement on locating a school in the park. It makes so much sense and I mean common sense.

Up until now there has been 3 opportunities for the political parties or members to vote against the proposals, the consultation and the scrutiny. There has not been one dissenting vote, it has been unanimous and many speakers have expressed delight that up until now this issue has not been used as a political football.

Even Lawrence Marshall who has been oscillating has in public, at the scrutiny meeting, stated that he supports Option C.

Dave and yourself have repeatedly mentioned this as being a vote loser but I have to tell you there is no sign of it anywhere other than your posts

As for funding? The council have said clearly and unequivally that there shall be no housing on either the Park or Golf Course. I believe that most peoples concerns are allayed by that piece of knowledge.

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Post by bbbrown » 04 Oct 2006, 12:31

Time will tell Porty, time will tell.
Where do you think the funding will come from?

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Post by seanie » 04 Oct 2006, 12:50

I have professional knowledge and experience of design and construction, outwith and including the education sector. On the subject of funding I claim no specialist knowledge beyond that of an interested layman.

The Scottish Executive has very high aspirations for schooling as set out in their Educating for Excellence priorities. But up till now they certainly haven't been in the habit of covering the costs of Local Authority projects on this scale.

However if a package can be put together that does attract Executive funding all well and good. I'd certainly prefer direct public funding.

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Post by Porty » 04 Oct 2006, 13:21

bbbrown wrote:Time will tell Porty, time will tell.
Where do you think the funding will come from?
At some point I am going to get weary of answering your questions and suffering the ignominy of your ignorance of my questions but I'm not quite there yet.

Funding will come largely from the Scottsih Executive and be topped up with the sale of all or part of the land that PHS and St Johns sits on. As this unfolds itslooking more and more like the housing on the park was a complete non-starter.

However, i don't think the SE will fund a decant. It was non-admissable in PPP. I also think that politicians will not vote to spend £6m on a decant. Its not good business, educational, moral or common sense.

Returningto the political effect. Whilst the overall issue is not a general vote loser. I believe that here in portobello the local politicians whom have actually campaigned to decant the children will be remembered and it will cost them support.
Last edited by Porty on 04 Oct 2006, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bbbrown » 04 Oct 2006, 13:29

I cant quite get my head around the seeming, sudden hope that the Exec is coming up with the cash. I used to float the very idea and was, frankly, pretty much classed as being insane. Whats changed?
If they dont come up with the cash, the council has said it will release land for building on. Will that be else where in Edinburgh? Another Park?
Funding remains the key, and if the issue aint a political football as yet, it will be come the elections.
The as yet unanswered question remains. How do we pay for the new schools?

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Post by Porty » 04 Oct 2006, 13:40

bbbrown wrote:I cant quite get my head around the seeming, sudden hope that the Exec is coming up with the cash. I used to float the very idea and was, frankly, pretty much classed as being insane. Whats changed? ?
Yep, I was one of the doubters. What changed was the confidence emanating from the council regarding SE funding. I believe Roy Jobson has integrity and is good at his job. At the recent executove meeting he stated that his department's track record at getting SE money was good and he intimated that preliminary discussions had take n place and the vibes were very positive.I may be being naive who knows?

What I do know is that about 10 days ago a leading proponent of PPAG was quoted in the evening news stating that there would be thousands of houses on the golf course. We know know that is utter nonsense.

I believe that whilst many of us are moving nearer to to a good educational solution, which after all is the objective, others are moving further away from reality. Which in itself is quite an achievement when one considers how unreal they were in the first place. :wink:

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Post by bbbrown » 05 Oct 2006, 14:04

In all fairness Porty, the PFANS website is also still actively perpetuating the myth of the third of the park for housing idea.
It is very refreshing to hear Councillor Burns state in public that the council has been listening to the people of the community and that it is definately not the intention of the council to fund the schools through building houses on the golf course. Councillor Jobson backs this up with his positive feedback that money will most likely come from the executive. Lets hope that we can take them at their word.
It seems obvious from what they are saying that they have taken on board the very strong feelings of the Community that housing on the park/Golf Course is not a good idea.

On the political front, I personally find it quite worrying just how the Councillor for Milton could be so out of touch with the views of the community she serves that she thought it the best way to progress the schools in the first place. Also, that the Executive member for finance and sustainability did not realise that funding from the executive would be a possibility. A lot of the "unrest" in the community could have been avoided had the housing issue been less eagerly promoted by local councillors in the first place. I think the electorate may remember this too come the elections.

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Post by Porty » 05 Oct 2006, 14:27

bbbrown wrote: In all fairness Porty, the PFANS website is also still actively perpetuating the myth of the third of the park for housing idea.
Guilty as charged. It is a problem with volunteer websites often life moves on faster than the guys can update the site. Which is the case here, it is exactly one week today that Andrew Burns made the statement. PPAG suffer from the same affliction, its nearly 3 weeks since Party in the Park and we ain't got no pics yet. From what I hear enough time has elapsed to have compiled individual portrait shots with a pen profile for all the attendees. :P
bbbrown wrote: On the political front, I personally find it quite worrying just how the Councillor for Milton could be so out of touch with the views of the community she serves that she thought it the best way to progress the schools in the first place
You are a jester.

From Maureen's March Newsletter.

" As I think I have said throughout, there is no way I would be supportive of taking forward this radical idea if I could see another practical way forward than using the golf course option, that would afford the kind of schools and community facilities which the whole of Portobello and district needs. There is no question that this wide community's children and families very much need this facility for themselves and for future generations.

There are a number of apparent alternative solutions being put forward, but I do not yet see a viable one among them. A simple look at the map of Portobello will tell you that there is only one site at the centre of the catchment area and that it is enormous. I have asked myself the key question - what should be at the heart of a community? Excellent community schools in woods and parkland, with playing fields for all? Or a golf course? If that is the choice, there's no real contest in my view: the community school has it hands down.

So far, most of what I see and hear and read is that people are desperately seeking other ideas and alternatives, as I have myself for about three years. But none have emerged yet; none that are really achievable or even desirable, in my view. I remain to be convinced that any of the other suggestions are good enough for the Portobello High School or good enough for our community, but I recognise that some people will take a lot of time and trouble to be even half convinced of that. And some will never, ever be convinced. Some feel they have a great deal to lose in their neighbourhood and we must work to make that less bad for them, a lot less bad than many of them fear right now."
bbbrown wrote: Also, that the Executive member for finance and sustainability did not realise that funding from the executive would be a possibility. A lot of the "unrest" in the community could have been avoided had the housing issue been less eagerly promoted by local councillors in the first place. I think the electorate may remember this too come the elections.
From Maureen's March Newsletter.

I believe there is a winnable battle to be had to find other sources of funding to minimise, or even eliminate, the need for housing on the site to pay for the new schools. We must also explore the possibilities of associating the primary and secondary school shared campuses. But the suggestion of amalgamating Holyrood and Portobello High Schools at a shared Duddingston campus does not get my support for educational, transport and landscape value reasons.

Read it and weep bbb.
Last edited by Porty on 05 Oct 2006, 14:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Dadaist » 05 Oct 2006, 14:38

Mo wrote:I have asked myself the key question - what should be at the heart of a community? Excellent community schools in woods and parkland, with playing fields for all? Or a golf course?
That would be a key question were it not flawed. It treats the land as if it were a blank chalkboard to have something drawn on it - neglecting the fact that yesterday's lesson is still up there.

You could also be as black & white & crass as she is and say "What should be at the heart of the community - a housing estate or a golf course?" Because up until recently we were being told that we had to sign up to just that.

When someone else has got there first, I think you need to be careful with your use of language when talking about the current occupants. Maureen pens a clumsily worded, rhetorical and disrespectful line of argument. If someone said it lacked integrity, I'm not sure I'd completely disagree with them.

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Post by bbbrown » 05 Oct 2006, 14:44

no, not jesting.

it is looking very much likely that the school will end up on the portobello park, not the golf course, and that housing on the golf course will not pay for the school. so the golf course will probably remain. at least that is my reading of it. i guess we will still have to wait for the actual out come. whatever happens, in my view, and i know from speaking to other parents that i am not alone, the whole thing has been handled very badly from the beginning, from the way the plans were first dribbled out to the very recent pronouncements that money will be available from the exec.

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Post by Porty » 05 Oct 2006, 14:57

bbbrown wrote: no, not jesting.
Ok , so how do you explain the assertion you made about Maureen's position on alternative to housing as funding? Its obvioulsy not true. Were you being spiteful or trying to portray her in a bad light to propagate bad feeling towards her? What's your game bbb? :roll:
bbbrown wrote: I think the electorate may remember this too come the elections.
What makes you think other people will remember something that you didn't? How do you expect people to remember things about Maureen that simply didn't happen?

Are you making this all up?

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Post by Dadaist » 05 Oct 2006, 15:00

You're not alone bb - even some proponents of the school in the park must think this but won't dare criticize COEC or upset any of the councillors involved!

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Post by bbbrown » 05 Oct 2006, 15:31

I am not playing games and I have no particular axe to grind with Councillor Childs. Indeed if I have mis represented her position then I offer my apology.
It is my view though, and that of many others, that our local councillors have little to be proud of in this whole messy affair. Obviously, you have a different view of Maureen...

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Post by Porty » 05 Oct 2006, 15:48

bbbrown wrote: I am not playing games and I have no particular axe to grind with Councillor Childs. Indeed if I have mis represented her position then I offer my apology.


Not playing games eh? This type of apology is becoming sadly too familiar here on POL. Its the old "If you feel I did mis-quote you then i apologise"

Do you accept that on the evidence presented that you HAVE mis-represented Maureen? And does your apology still hold.

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