Portobello Community Council

[seanie]

Craigmillar have recently set up a Development Trust to try and move things on since the previous devleopment plan has stalled. An umbrella organisation like that for Portobello might be an idea, working with existing groups but also bringing in a wider audience.

[seanie]

Two views on the way forward for community organisation. The first one may be a bit harsh.

[Porty]

The first one may be a bit harsh.

Seems totally spot on to me, spookily so.

[Mark Cameron]

Does anyone have any idea how to set up such a Trust? I'd be interested in getting involved.

[seanie]

I think the logistics are pretty straightforward, but you need enough people who are enthusiastic to make it work. And they need to connect with the community in general. That'll be through small things rather than a grand overarching plan, so it would require a pragmatic approach.

[Mark Cameron]

Do any PCC members know when the agenda for Monday's meeting will be available? It says here - http://portobellocc.org/agenda%20&%20minutes.html - it'll be posted 7 days before the next meeting.

I'm going to attend on Monday and would like to have an idea what's to be discussed.

Thanks

[wangi]

Contact email address: secretary@portobellocc.org

[Mark Cameron]

Thanks Wangi. I'll drop them an email.

I've also another question (not specifically for you Wangi)

I was having a read over October's minutes and saw this:

293.5j ‘Big W’ public inquiry (292.9e). John Stewart was drafting a Community Council precognition and
would circulate it for comment before it was submitted.
* Action: John Stewart to circulate draft ‘Big W’ precognition for comment

What's the inquiry relating specifically and what is the PCC view on the matter?

[wangi]

Short version: Somebody's looking for food retail consent for the site; planning application for superstore was refused (PCC objected, I seem to recall) and went to appeal

[Porty]

293.5j ‘Big W’ public inquiry (292.9e). John Stewart was drafting a Community Council precognition and
would circulate it for comment before it was submitted.
* Action: John Stewart to circulate draft ‘Big W’ precognition for comment
What's the inquiry relating specifically and what is the PCC view on the matter?

Surely you recall PCC's extensive community consultation on the "Big W" site?

280.7 Application to redevelop ‘Big W’ site
A planning application has been lodged to permit food to be sold on this site, and comments requested by
23rd July, though Diana Cairns has requested an extension. She is collecting grounds for objection.
* Action: All, to encourage as many people as possible to object to this application.* Action: Diana Cairns to write objecting to the application.

Diana Cairns is requesting an extension to give her more time to collect grounds for objection whilst simutaneously encouraging as many people as possible to object. That'll be the community had its say then.

Diana is tasked with writing to object.

Get the drift??

[Mark Cameron]

Object on what grounds? Was it clear what the proposed food retail outlet was. I genuinely missed this one.

[seanie]

There was an existing condition that the site couldn't be used for food retail (over a small %). The planning application was to change that and have another superstore. The principal argument against was the threat to the High Street of yet another large supermarket in fairly close proximity.

[Porty]

Do any PCC members know when the agenda for Monday's meeting will be available? It says here - http://portobellocc.org/agenda%20&%20minutes.html - it'll be posted 7 days before the next meeting.

I'm going to attend on Monday and would like to have an idea what's to be discussed.

Thanks

The link to agendas and minutes no longer appears to be working or is it just me?

[urchaidh]

I've read a lot of posts on here that would suggest our* Community Council is perhaps not representing the views of the community as well as it might. Some of this may well be a case of PCC not representing the views of the TalkPorty community, which is not a problem, but there are definite instances - the recent Bellfield Lane Planning Application, Annie and Belle's and the new school, from which it is clear that the PCC is increasingly out of touch with the community 'Portygeist'.

Everyone on the Community Council cares about the local community and wants the best, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

This is a very good point, and I agree, but it leaves open the question of who defines what "the best" is. The problem with PCC is not a lack of commitment, but an inability by some members to differentiate between what they personally think is best and what the community does and an unwillingness to act solely on the latter. There are cases in which the community opinion is genuinely divided, and it makes sense in those cases for the CC to take a neutral or balanced stance, but otherwise it needs to nail colours to its mast.

I'd suggest it's time for a gentle Porty Spring - as a first step the community needs to start submitting agenda items to meetings asking for specific actions to be taken on the community's behalf. The CC would be required, preferably through consensus but ultimately by vote, to either accept or reject the proposition. Either way, we as a community get an accountable debate on the issue and a decision.

This can maybe avoid the sort of gamesmanship and stalling that lead to any chance of action being deferred until it's far too late, as in the recent Annie and Belle case:

Well the discussion lasted over an hour but didn't reach a firm conclusion. It will be brought back to a later meeting after some further fact finding.

So , how about making a start with the PHS issue? There is no clearer case of the CC being at odds with current community feeling. A motion proposing that PPAG have their representation on the CC terminated and that a letter be sent to them asking them to withdraw their appeal immediately should do the trick. There is no way that a democratic community council could turn that down given the recent display of popular outrage against PPAG, is there?


* technically, 'your', I have to confess that I don't actually live within the PCC boundary, being about 20 metres or so on the other side of the line. I live in Porty, and I want to see it prosper as a community which is why I'm writing this, but I can only really shout encouragement from the sidelines on this one.

[seashell]

Excellent suggestion.
I await with considerable interest to see if it is taken forward.

[Bob Jefferson]

I don't think you will have very long to wait.

[seashell]

I don't think you will have very long to wait.

Good. The sooner things get sorted out, the better. It's not just the school, but also thse recent planning applications. An impartial observer might look at these examples and start to think that certain people use PCC as their personal mouthpiece.

[Puerto bella]

What does 'sorted out' mean?

[wangi]

I'd guess seashell's thinking about some planning applications that Portobello Community Council either objected to (new build on one of the lanes) or commented on but was considered as an objection by planning (cafes).

As in lets be a bit more positive about proposed development in Portobello. The default position PCC starts off from should be support, rather than objection.

Case in point - the planning application for retirement flats on the British Legion site. This was discussed recently (last one) with the Chair obviously having issues with the design. It's a great scheme, and they've consulted well with the community. It was was heading toward a comment to planning from PCC (= probably treated as objection) until I asked from the back row why it shouldn't be a support? Vote followed, resulting in a support with comments on design... And it's not in the area either.

[Porty]

One has to ask the quetsion; " What on earth does the Chair know about appropriate design" The evidence suggests; not very much.

Case in point:

Recently there was an application to convert a garage into a mews house at 2 John Street Lane West, very close to where he lives. Funnily enough, even although it is located in the heart of the conservation area, it was never discussed at PCC, perhaps it was feared it would get a yes vote? PCC have a policy of always objecting to applications in the conservation area- but not this one.

The Portobello Amenity Society, where he is also chair, objected.

In a private capacity, he wrote a 1000 word objection (not in principle) largely focussing on design and materials. The letter is no longer on the council portal but the points of interest are detailed in the planners report.

Application Type Planning Permission
Application Address: 2 John Street Lane West
Edinburgh


Proposal: Proposed erection of garage and residential accommodation.
Reference No: 11/02369/FUL

Consultations, Representations and Planning Policy

Consultations

Services for Communities (Environmental Health).

The application proposes the erection of a garage and residential accommodation at the above site in the Portobello area of the city.

Environmental Assessment would offer no objections to this proposed development as for previous application (11/00948/FUL).

Transport

The Head of Transport has advised that he has no objections to the application.

Representations

The application was advertised on 29 July 2011. Eight letters of representation were received, including one from Portobello Amenity Society, raising the following issues:

Principle (addressed in assessment a):
- no objection to principle of residential accommodation.

Design (addressed in assessment b):

- design and materials not of standard required for new developments visible part of conservation area;
- existing garage building is ugly;
- materials - no precedent for structure that is half wood; disjointed appearance of wood and render on elevations; wood alien;
- suggests East elevation is all smooth render painted stone colour; suggests north and south elevations be stone;
- suggests - all walls should be stone; south (side) elevation facing park should be stone;
- reduce overhanging eaves;
- height - too high; pitch of roof unnecessarily steep;
- remove reference to solar panels; and
- solar panels will be visible.

Conservation (addressed in assessment c):

- standards of design and materials not appropriate; not of standard required in visible part of conservation area;
- mix of materials - inappropriate and out of keeping with character of conservation area;
- south elevation facing across Abercorn Park would be extremely visible from the main road through conservation area; Park surrounded by stone villas;
- examples of recent developments with frontages being stone;
- opportunity to enhance conservation area; sensitive redevelopment could improve character of lane.

Listed buildings (addressed in assessment d):

- alien materials in setting of surrounding listed buildings; and
- out of character with surrounding listed buildings.

Amenity (addressed in assessment e):

- roof near window - gentler slope would be more appropriate.

Full copies of the representations made in respect of this application are available in Group Rooms or can be requested for viewing at the Main Reception, City Chambers, High Street.

Disjointed wood and render, ugly garage, alien materials and so on. You name it, he got it in there and quite a few things you would never of thought of. Guess what?

The application sailed through with about half a dozen minor modifications, commonplace in applications like this one. The 1000 word objection contained not one single mention of a planning policy and the comments failed to impact, almost all were ignored. Thereby providing a good understanding of the design and planning nous on display.

There are dozens of examples of similar efforts by the Chair of the PCC. As Wangi says the start point should be to support applications and if you must object, make it for valid reasons, otherwise you risk causing grief and bad feelings.

[Chas]

How did the new kebab shop on Southfield Place slip under the radar?

Southfield Place falls outwith the Portobello CC boundary.

If Southfield Place is outside, does that mean the school is too?

[wangi]

The current PHS is within the Northfield/Willowbrae Community Council area; the new site Portobello Community Council.

[Franck]

The current PHS is within the Northfield/Willowbrae Community Council area; the new site Portobello Community Council.

So Porty Park is within PCC boundaries, but Southfield Place is not?!That's just dumb.

Can anyone provide a map of the PCC jurisdiction please?

[wangi]

Can anyone provide a map of the PCC jurisdiction please?

See http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/f ... boundaries (or of you want to zoom around in detail it's a data set on http://217.174.251.127/Atlas/CECAtlas.html )

[Henry Christian]

So Porty Park is within PCC boundaries, but Southfield Place is not?!That's just dumb.

Can anyone provide a map of the PCC jurisdiction please?

The SE side of Southfield Place (right-hand side as you look down towards Brighton Place) is within the PCC boundary, but the NW is not. The current PHS is not even within the Portobello/Craigmillar city council ward, instead it is in Craigentinny/Duddingston.

Some of the boundaries do appear to be quite bizarre.

[geofflynn]

Notes from PCC Meeting, Monday, 30 April 2012

Cast list include many of the usual suspects though a select few seem to do most of the talking: John Stewart (JS), Diana Cairns (DC), Stephen Hawkins (SH), Maureen Child (MC),  Ros Sutherland (RS)

 Police report: 39 crimes. mostly vandalism and theft. Housebreaking has dropped due to group being successfully apprehended. Can have a visit from Crime Prevention Officer if you want. Two vehicle accidents with no injury. Highlighting bicycle use. Secure bike to immovable object. Take a photo of bike and keep in a safe place. Take note of unique features, serial numbers, etc.  Five vehicles in Abercorn Terrace, 5th/6th April. No one identified to date. PC Piers working with community officer. Several operations on Anti Social Behaviour, drugs, Can email or phone police office. 

Environmental update: Proposed to reinstate a metal bench to town hall. Lost wooden bench. Msg from James Hunter making a priority of looking after the pumping station. Windsor Place bins. Toilets: Asked city wide team to open toilets all year round. Said they won't. 

Minutes of previous meeting: Anything to be changed? 

Matters arising from minutes: [Didn't get a copy of minutes so couldn't keep track. Lots of reference to 297.3, 297.6, etc]

Annie and Belle's issue is that they are retail so can only have four tables, and would like two more tables but need a new licence class. It's fallen foul of the PCC and Planners, in spite of 700 signatures in support of application. 

Robert Gatliff: Noise from 5-a-side football pitches: Old person wants noise reduced. Parties which go on late, noisy, and a change to surface or balls has increased the noise. Can PCC do anything? Stephen Hawkins: Licensing board covers noisy parties. Suggests contacting licensing officers. Anyone disturbed by noise should phone the Noise Team on 529 3030.


Expenditure: Rent of 60gbp, 50gpb to Hornets, insurance 199.48gbp for public liability, 80GBP for planning around the phone box. Down to 1618.55 GBP left in kitty.

Planning: JS emailed round a planning app to part demolish 1 Portobello High Street. Red brick building first on your right.  (Circulates plan). Application by Scottish Power for partial demolition. Originally built in 1890 for tram system. Drove the cables that hauled the trams along the track. "We haven't many industrial buildings left from Victorian times" I suggest we object to the partial demolition. Agreement to object.  JS: "Objections have to be in by tomorrow. It's easy to do on the planning portal. I'm going to do PCC objection tonight, PAS has objected and Portobello Heritage Society has objected too. "

Changes to paths to Fort. Developer wants to meet PCC.  No one able to remember PCC's list of objections. Diana Cairns to meet him. 

Signage: Joppa Tennis Courts wants a sign to point people to courts. 

Councillors report: Stephen Hawkins has circulated an end of term report.  JS wants to minute thanks to SH.  Maureen Child added thanks to Stephen Hawkins. 

AOCB:-


Good citizenship award: CEC recognises a member of public. Asked that PCC nominate Jonathan Bendit. Nominations have to be in by Friday. DC wants to know if PCC can nominate more than one person. SH says something Darling award needs to incorporate an element of promotion for the city.  [Various other people mentioned] CEC councillors will get to vote on a private agenda where no one knows who voted for whom. Eric Liddle seems to be more popular choice for nomination.

Golf course: Ros Sutherland:  "It's a shame that councillor Bridgman isn't still here because of what he said at the meeting last week about the golf course and its future. Clearly there was a strength of feeling about the golf course both as a facility and a part of the culture of portobello. Edinburgh Leisure have twice in the past suggested that the golf course be cut to meet their budget reductions. Is there something the PCC can do to write to Edinburgh Leisure re the strength of feeling in the community about retaining the golf course". Maureen Child: "Might be better to say that, if CEC needs to drop golf course, the community would take it on and keep it going". SH: "Dedicating the golf course one of the Queen's jubilee fields. Maybe a dedication from the PCC would help". JS: "Is there a model for a community taking on a golf course". RS: "I would be happy to look into that". Sheila Gilmore: I woud hope Edinburgh Leisure don't want to close it. In Craigmillar they've set up a community development trust which will acquire assets and develop them. Just visited one in Shoreditch. Interesting model to have community control and run it as a business enterprise. " Lawrence: "We should be careful about allowing council/Edinburgh Leisure to back away. I don't think we should let the council off the hook. I wouldn't mention it at all in a letter to the council. It's been deeply unfortunate that the issue came up in relation to the high school. " Pamela Moffat: " I spoke to family at the weekend who thought housing was going to be built on the golf course. How would they have come to that conclusion? " JS titters. No one says anything.  Lee Kindness: "The golf course is common good land so for housing to be built but I fully understand where people would have got that idea from."  Sheila Gilmore: "I think SH's suggestion is a good one. " MC: "Letter should back up SH's suggestion that the golf course should be a jubilee park".  JS: "Diana you happy to do that?"


Speakers: Steve Adjukey? coming to talk to us. June or August meetings? JS: "I'll give him those dates"

Scottish Water/ Wind Turbine: PEDAL's plans have hit the buffers. Sean Watters: "American PPP financiers are insisting on a bond (money up front) for the maximum amount of damage. " SH: "We've had a huge amount of support from the community. Money is in place to take it to planning. As a community group we've negotiated with Scottish Water openly but they've not been totally open. " Eva Shoenfold: "moving it closer to Leith may threaten the Terns. The site we've got is best, it's not necessarily going to be possible. " JS: "Sheila can you email DC a copy of letter you sent. Sorry, Nick can you do that ?"

Flood prevention work: Isn't there a problem with the flood prevention work at the Figgate Burn?  


 

[Bob Jefferson]

Thanks Geoff. Shorthand or did you record the audio? Much better than waiting a month for the minutes at any rate.

[Doris]

I thought that the nominations for Jubilee Parks had already been submitted.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/articl ... be_forever

SH on the ball as usual......

[Pal of Porty]

I thought that the nominations for Jubilee Parks had already been submitted.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/articl ... be_forever

SH on the ball as usual......

That is definitely what the Greens were told at the full Council meeting last Thursday when they submitted their amendment. Way beyond the deadline for submissions.

[seashell]

I thought SH was a councillor? Shouldn't he know things like that? or is it a bit like RS not knowing that chairing PPAG was a conflict of interest with her job with CEC - an inconvenient truth best pushed aside? They're rather good at doing that.

[seanie]

SH was on the committee that approved the list last September.

[seashell]

That's a tad embarrassing for him, isn't it? Not exactly got his finger on the pulse and one would expect him to know something as basic as that.

[Doris]

SH was on the committee that approved the list last September.

[Mark Cameron]

I'm extremelly concerned that the integrity of PCC is being undermined by unwillingness to address the flouting of the code of conduct by certain high profile individuals. Anyone else thinking that?

[Porty]

That's a tad embarrassing for him, isn't it? Not exactly got his finger on the pulse and one would expect him to know something as basic as that.

he doesn't do embarassment.