New Portobello High School- Where and how?

[seanie]

Regarding PFI/PPP - my understanding is that this proposal doesn't strictly fall into that category, although the involvement of the Council's arms length development company EDI suggests to me that the proposal might fall somewhere around the fuzzy boundary between PPP and not PPP. Is there anybody out there who can outline the practical implications of EDI's involvement? Will the Council own/develop the schools, with EDI taking care of the housing, or will EDI be involved in developing the schools too?

I don't know how EDI is organised but councils are increasingly trying to avoid PPP where possible. They generally do so by generating some capital (selling off some land for housing) coupled with "prudential borrowing".

"Prudential borrowing" is a relatively new regime whereby councils can borrow funds directly to invest in capital projects if they can demonstrate that the long term savings will outweigh their repayments. The loans are secured on future capital receipts and Local Authorities tend to be viewed as good creditors so can borrow at advantageous rates.

The combination can generate sufficient funds depending on the nature of the project.

[Dadaist]

So we should be grateful that's not what we are getting then? And perhaps it was a blessing in disguise that we didn't make the second round of PPP. So, those of us who believe that we need new schools are left with the option of a self-financing package, which is what is being proposed, or a Fairy Godmother.

Rhetoric.

Except that a few people believe there are alternatives. I spoke to two of my colleagues on the Community Council today. I don't think it would be fair to name them. The first blames the Council, successive governments and Tony Blair in particular for under-funding of our schools and isn't prepared to give up the Golf Course, preferring that the school is rebuilt in situ even though this would mean a school several stories high without playing fields, with considerable disruption to children and teachers through decant into portakabins, and no means of funding.

The second, a keen golfer, believes that the Council, and presumably our local councillors, are lying or being economical with the truth about the unsuitability of alternative sites.

I mention this because I think that it is important to understand the views of people who are against the proposal.

It's important but you haven't done that. All you've done is show what those 2 people on the Community Council think.

[Dadaist]

Regarding PFI/PPP - my understanding is that this proposal doesn't strictly fall into that category, although the involvement of the Council's arms length development company EDI suggests to me that the proposal might fall somewhere around the fuzzy boundary between PPP and not PPP. Is there anybody out there who can outline the practical implications of EDI's involvement? Will the Council own/develop the schools, with EDI taking care of the housing, or will EDI be involved in developing the schools too?

I don't know how EDI is organised but councils are increasingly trying to avoid PPP where possible. They generally do so by generating some capital (selling off some land for housing) coupled with "prudential borrowing".

"Prudential borrowing" is a relatively new regime whereby councils can borrow funds directly to invest in capital projects if they can demonstrate that the long term savings will outweigh their repayments. The loans are secured on future capital receipts and Local Authorities tend to be viewed as good creditors so can borrow at advantageous rates.

The combination can generate sufficient funds depending on the nature of the project.

Very interesting!

[seanie]

I’m echoing others but the fundamental problem here is the condition of the existing schools. We shouldn’t lose sight of that. That’s what’s driving this proposal. And that problem isn’t going to magically disappear. If left unaddressed it’ll get worse.

And since those schools are part of this community, that is a problem for this community.

Building on the golf course has been proposed as a possible solution, but it’s admittedly a drastic one. Now I can see the practical advantages but appreciate why people would be concerned. Ultimately it may not be acceptable. But for me that would depend on the details of the proposal; on what balance is struck between differing interests and concerns; on the benefits compared to the losses incurred.

And as things stand I couldn’t make an evaluation of that kind. And I wouldn’t expect to for some time. Because that sort of detail would only emerge through a lengthy process of design development, consultation and dialogue. And if all the community engaged constructively in such a process maybe we could reach a mutually satisfactory resolution.

It’s wrong to rush to judgement and dismiss the proposal out of hand. Particularly if there are no viable alternatives.

[wangi]

alternative sites

Which are.......?

Previously in this thread a number of people proposed alternative sites. Of those only two are really central enough or big enough.



1. Current site + Figgate Park. Would lead to the complete loss (except for a sliver of "linear park") of the park and would require purchase and demolition of houses between the two sites to merge them. Also in-fill on pond / clay pit. I'd bet there wouldn't be much spare space left over to develop as housing to balance the books...

2. Ex-railway site, between railway and HLR. Utilisation of this industrial site certainly isn't anything near 100%, but would require purchase of the site and clean up. Enough space? Major problem would be access, due to it being "locked in" by the road and railway - obvious safety concerns unless done properly (as in 3 or 4 tunnels under the road/rail). Would leave existing site for housing development.

[seanie]

Can you be sure the devious swines at the Council don't have a cloaking device?

There's probably a perfect site they've kept hidden so they can pursue they're pathological vendetta against golf-courses.

[Gemini]

People do not really have enough information to make up their minds one way or another, however some of us have nailed our colours to the mast already, myself included.I have piled in for and Gemini and dc have been photographed at the golf course in a show of disapproval.

No it wiznae me with dc!

I have piled in because I believe our children deserve a modern school in an environemet that maximises their potential for learning, enjoyment, lesiure and health. I have piled in because the golf course scheme has a reasonable chance of fruition, the key factor is funding and this option has funding, which is what makes it viable.

No other alternative has funding or even prospect of funding, that is what makes these options unviable. It is not an opinion it is a fact.

Quote Jotbox>>
I don't know how EDI is organised but councils are increasingly trying to avoid PPP where possible. They generally do so by generating some capital (selling off some land for housing) coupled with "prudential borrowing".

"Prudential borrowing" is a relatively new regime whereby councils can borrow funds directly to invest in capital projects if they can demonstrate that the long term savings will outweigh their repayments. The loans are secured on future capital receipts and Local Authorities tend to be viewed as good creditors so can borrow at advantageous rates.

The combination can generate sufficient funds depending on the nature of the project. end quote<<<

Has this option been looked at?

Having said that, my support for the golf course scheme is not unconditional, if the proposal involved building houses on say 50% of the course, losing the tree line and no general community amenity, then I would have to re-evaluate. I and I suspect most of us crave more information. I have every reason to believe that this information will be forthcoming.

One hopes.

[Dadaist]

Can you be sure the devious swines at the Council don't have a cloaking device?

There's probably a perfect site they've kept hidden so they can pursue they're pathological vendetta against golf-courses.

Looking at wangi's map makes me think the people at the Council have been playing "Sim City" and keep getting annoyed at the golf course. It's just begging for some buildings to link up the Christians with the Durhams.

What's the new area to be called - the Chrums?

[Bob Jefferson]

Just finished listening to the Radio Scotland programme and I would like to congratulate Emma on an excellent performance. I will get a copy up on the site later today.

[bellybabe]

...As was Diana's contribution. Well done all.

Paula

[Stephen McIntyre]

Emma did very well indeed, very well. Both sides of the debate made good points and everyone seemed to agree that we needed a new school, yet again no one came up with an alternative. I was very encouraged that Colin Rennie from the NPFA could not dis the proposal in any shape or form. He said it was important to widen the debate to a national level, I'm afraid not from where I'm sitting mate. A bit of a red herring.

There is clearly an issue with lack of information and also with contradictory information. Some interesting key points:

New Golf Course will be twice the size of the existing course. Which should come in handy. The new president of PGC informed us that there is a waiting list and therefore a bigger course should serve more people from the community.

It was suggested that the new course will not be on a bus route but I guess we have to wait and see. It could be argued that the existing course is not on a bus route either.

Community recreational space will increase as a result of the proposal. Central portobello will lose a bit but others in the community will have more space.

[tom nimmo]

I am against building a new school on the golf course. I attended the High School just after it was built and pupils were taken to Cavalry Park for football, rugby, hockey etc and a fair bit of PE time was utilised on the existing playgrounds. Edinburgh schools suffer from atrocious under-funding because our elected representatives are more interested in wasting our money on grand schemes like congestion charging and trams. There is plenty of room in the current location to build a new school without destroying a good community resource in the process. A good start to making more space available would be banning teachers' cars from the school grounds and using these spaces to redevelop the school buildings. It seems to me that the only financial strategy our councillors have is to sell off the remaining green spaces we have left. How will they manage to raise funds when there is nothing left to sell? Be careful what you wish for as our Portobello councillor is on record as being in favour of compulsorally purchasing homes to build a new library and 'civic square' so he just might have your home in sight if it gets in the way of the High School scheme.

[Porty]

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/lette ... =198932006

And for those of you that can't be bothered to click: From today's evening news.

New schools sorely needed in Portobello

LAST week's announcement that the council is proposing to build a new Portobello High School and a new St John's Primary School was fantastic news for local families and communities.

Many local parents are determined to have new schools and we are delighted that the council is prepared to tackle the problem.
It would be unacceptable if there were no plans in place to transform the school for its 1400 pupils and staff.

Our children need a school fit for the 21st century. All our community deserve fantastic schools and community facilities, which are accessible to all.

Portobello High School is the largest school in the city but has no playing fields or outdoor green space. Worse than that, the building is actually so run down that parts of it are likely soon to be beyond repair.

The golf course site would offer an excellent opportunity to give children access to green space and the wider community access to the facilities it would offer.

We all need to know a lot more about the proposals, how they will be financed and how the community will be involved. The council has made a start and this should be welcomed, but there is a long way to go.

I hope all members of the local community will be prepared to consider the proposals with an open mind when they are presented to us.

Jackie Brock, Marlborough Street, Edinburgh

[Mate of Marya]

Do you not think the 1400 PHS pupils deserve a green school. At present they function on a concrete jungle. I have just returned from PGC and I must say what a beautiful environment for a school to be situated.
The new PHS on PGC would make an excellent community resource. The pupils would have immediate access to sport facilities during the day and the community in general would have access at the weekend and in the evenings. The new golf course would be an additional community resource; better than the nine hole course which we have at present. I am delighted the new course is proposed to be twice the size. The existing PHS is not a good resource. It is falling down around our ears. It costs the region too much money to finance the repairs.
Where would over 100 teacher's park their cars? Duddingston Road?
Our council may be selling some green space to help finance a new PHS, but they are also buying new land to create a new, larger golf course. We will still have green space around the PGC site and it will be utilised by more than 120 golf club members. We will have 20% of the old PHS/St Johns site as a park - another "new" green space.
In my opinion, this proposal is an excellent opportunity to provide our children with a green school as well as provide excellent leisure facilities for the whole Portobello Community.

[Poppy]

Thanks, Wangi, for the alt sites. Can't see anything that involves Comp Purchase Orders being much of an option - can take years because in this case the owners of the houses involved would surely resist! And these same time constraints go for the railway site re cleansing and tunnels?

No sites on the other side of Milton Road?? What is the catchment area for PHS these days?

BTW Thanks BB for info re the tress on PGC. Also, thought I'd point out that what looks like an oblong building on the NE of the GC is in fact underground water tanks under construction! Had me fooled when I saw this arial photo ages ago.

[Bob Jefferson]

For anyone who missed today's excellent coverage on Radio Scotland, here's a link to listen again. Fast forward 22 minutes or so to catch the start of the piece. Not sure how long these Listen Again programmes remain available (a week presumably?) but we will post a permanent link soon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks ... ndlive_wed

[seanie]

Has this option been looked at?

The amount of money that can be aquired through "prudential borrowing" is not related to project costs as such, but rather long-term savings set against repayments.

That limits the scope. For a given project, if costs are swelled say by an extended decant, the aquisition of a new site, or by building difficulties, such costs can't be offset by additional borrowing.

So further capital is frequently required. Such as selling land for development.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Has this option been looked at?

Just to add what seanie said.

The prudential borrowing option will be factored in to any proposal not just the golf course proposal. However, it will contribute a relatively small percentage to any project. So if the GC is the preferred/only route the effect of prudential borrowing would be to restrict the amount of land sold for housing.

[Stephen McIntyre]

...... There is plenty of room in the current location to build a new school without destroying a good community resource in the process.......

Tom, what do you mean specifically when you say "destroying a good community resource"?

[seanie]

There is plenty of room in the current location to build a new school without destroying a good community resource in the process.

There is hardly any room in the current location.

For a school of that capacity the site is miniscule as it is. Trying to build another school in-situ would be an absolute nightmare. Even if possible, which personally I doubt given health and safety requirements and the confines of the site, it would be extremely difficult.

And as I said before, in construction, things that are extremely difficult usually end up extremely expensive. Which leads right back to the funding problem. It might be possible if you generated enough capital.

By selling the golf course to a supermarket maybe....

[Pal of Porty]

...I attended the High School just after it was built and pupils were taken to Cavalry Park for football, rugby, hockey etc

I was in these changing rooms at the weekend and they are in the same state of dilpidation and decay as the school.

[Gemini]

Has this option been looked at?

Just to add what seanie said.

The prudential borrowing option will be factored in to any proposal not just the golf course proposal. However, it will contribute a relatively small percentage to any project. So if the GC is the preferred/only route the effect of prudential borrowing would be to restrict the amount of land sold for housing.

I count myself as just one, of many, in the Portobello Community, who have not been priveledged - unlike Ms Wood etc, to what proposals have
been put forward by COEC, for the 'concereting over' of PGC and the remainder of Portobello Park?
From what I am led to believe so far, from POL. 1/3 of P/Park is to be left as Green Space? I would really like to know what is happening to the Pitz site? For the sake of argument, lets say, that the Pitz site is still to be relocated, at Portobello Park - how much Green Space, would actually be left? 2 schools ( 1 for 1400 pupils)? the other for 400 pupils? sports and recreational
facilities, The Pitz site? and the remainder to be developed for housing!
Incidentally, didn't Jack tell us only last year, that the Population of
Scotland was falling? Has Jack got it wrong again

PHS teacher parking at 100 spaces! St John's, 30 or perhaps more?
Patrons of the Pitz - no idea? Residential Housing Car spaces?
Associated drop off pick up by parents ? Service vehicles ?
On heck of a lot of vehicles!

The proposed new Golf Course in 'East Lothian' quite a distance from the
centre of Portobello - in anybody's book, yet even more housing , more cars.

Whose to say that, IF , PHS is relocated to PGG, that Flats will not be
built on the existing school/s site?

We have also heard 'a rumour' that Jessfield Bowling Club is to be re-located to a better location - Where? and that talks are underway to build yet even more flats. Where does it end?

[wangi]

Incidentally, didn't Jack tell us only last year, that the Population of Scotland was falling? Has Jack got it wrong again

Whose to say that, IF , PHS is relocated to PGG, that Flats will not be
built on the existing school/s site?

The population of Scotland might be falling, the the population of Edinburgh and South Central Scotland is rising.

I take it as a given that the existing sites would be redeveloped as housing... And I think that's been made pretty clear.

[tom nimmo]

In answer to Stephen. The community resource that would be destroyed is the golf course, the football pitches and the spaces in between. The idea of a low-level school plus housing to part fund it would not leave much space for Porty people to enjoy. Also, the notion of building a 'green' school that has to accomodate parking for 100 teachers' cars is laughable. There were the same number of teachers back in the 70s who must have struggled by on public transport so, as there are far better bus routes now, maybe todays teachers need to get out of their cars. The state of the changing rooms at Cavalry Park is, like the condition of the high school itself, due to council under-funding in the past so, at the risk of repeating myself, our elected representatives should be a bit more prudent with our money rather than wasting it. Preserving what we have to a high standard is more eco-friendly than destroying to rebuild because of neglect.

[Gemini]

Incidentally, didn't Jack tell us only last year, that the Population of Scotland was falling? Has Jack got it wrong again

Whose to say that, IF , PHS is relocated to PGG, that Flats will not be
built on the existing school/s site?

The population of Scotland might be falling, the the population of Edinburgh and South Central Scotland is rising.

I take it as a given that the existing sites would be redeveloped as housing... And I think that's been made pretty clear.

No its not 'pretty clear' what type of housing?

[Gemini]

The good only days

http://www.dumpdee.co.uk/id56.html

[Mate of Marya]

The golf course is being replaced.
The football pitches and spaces in between are staying.
The space porty people will enjoy will be the new school environment, including playing fields and sports facilities.

So you don't drive yourself tom, 100% environmentally friendly?

[wangi]

I take it as a given that the existing sites would be redeveloped as housing... And I think that's been made pretty clear.

No its not 'pretty clear' what type of housing?

I didn't say, I don't know. I'd imagine what would sell best on the open market along with the "required" % of affordable housing they've got to do these days too.

Back up on page 6:

much needed housing (20% affordable, 20% green space)

[Gemini]

The golf course is being replaced.
The football pitches and spaces in between are staying.
The space porty people will enjoy will be the new school environment, including playing fields and sports facilities.

So you don't drive yourself tom, 100% environmentally friendly?

quote]"If you can imagine a giant white elephant dressed in the emperor's new clothes that is initially projected to cost £10m + but escalates to the price of a new Forth Estuary Secondary School before finally imploding due to the infinite weight of its own pretentiousness and disappearing up its own black hole then you are on the right track" explains one of the many diverse coastal humans involved in the vision.

Pretty much sums up the proposed PHS development.

Who is Moi?

[Epykat]

The golf course is being replaced.

Probably a forgone conclusion

The football pitches and spaces in between are staying.

Debatable

The space porty people will enjoy will be the new school environment, including playing fields and sports facilities

Only if you have a vested interest in the school. Those without children probably don't.

So you don't drive yourself tom, 100% environmentally friendly?

You don't have to live like a total caveman to want to preserve something that's potentially going to be lost forever. I don't have a car through personal choice, it doesn't mean I also take my washing to the Figgate Burn and beat it on a stone

[Mate of Marya]

Who is Moi?
If we listen to all the Portobello Pessimists there will be no room for any large white elephant on the Portobello Golf Course Site!!!!

[Maria]

maybe todays teachers need to get out of their cars.

Even better, Tom, maybe some of the teachers could move into the new affordable housing that will come with the new developments and then walk to work ?

[Gemini]

The golf course is being replaced.

In EAST LOTHIAN - but that's alrighty - is it?

The football pitches and spaces in between are staying.

How much space is between the football pitches?

The space porty people will enjoy will be the new school environment, including playing fields and sports facilities.

After falling off my chair laughing at this, I realised that you were in fact
being serious

So you don't drive yourself tom, 100% environmentally friendly?

Think he does, although to be fair he does cycle most places ,I believe?


Oops a wee fau pas with the 'quotes' tsk tsk

[Gemini]

Who is Moi?
If we listen to all the Portobello Pessimists there will be no room for any large white elephant on the Portobello Golf Course Site!!!!

When's Public Meeting ?- Maureen Child promised same, at
the Public meeting held in the TH, late last year.
Only then, will we be able to guage the feelings of the Portobello & surrounding communities, feelings.

[Gemini]

the most audacious concept to emerge from the Portobello' community

Moi certainly has their finger on the pulse - glad she/he has nailed
their colours to the mast ,obviously supporting the opposers of the new PHS location.


Who is Moi?