Scottish Power Site Re-development 3 - supermarket + housing

[Franck]

This is getting silly now.People being chastised for attending meetings, people's opinions being negated because they are not residents of Portobello.

During the meeting, did any CC members suggest there was significant % of Portobello residents and business owners pro the proposed development?

I really think PCC need to be taken out of the equation by the council or BL walk away from the development, it's becoming almost like playground mentality and doing no good at all.

[Pal of Porty]

John Stewart says,

"As you are aware, the community council is unable to answer your question whether it will support or object to a food store of 18,000 sq.ft. being part of your revised plans for this site".

The previous correspondence from the Chair looks like it is very much an objection to me!

[Maria]

During the meeting, did any CC members suggest there was significant % of Portobello residents and business owners pro the proposed development?

I really think PCC need to be taken out of the equation by the council or BL walk away from the development, it's becoming almost like playground mentality and doing no good at all.

There was considerable 'heated' discussion Franck on whether members could truly identify the feeling of the community. Some members urged consultation, while others questioned if it is indeed possible to carry out a fair and meaningful consultation. Seanie's 'straw poll' was mentioned, along with attempts made by other members to consult, but all were open to criticism.

There was discussion on whether the CC should call a public meeting and an offer was made by one member to arrange such a meeting . However, she pointed out two major problems. The first is a shortage of time - Phil understandably wants a decision a.s.a.p as the interest payments are racking up, but for the PCC to undertake widespread community consultation would involve a mail drop to every household and then a meeting, all of which takes time to arrange. Then there's the issue that seems to be the stumbling block for many, who are unable to decide one way or another- will the proposed new supermarket have a detrimental effect on local retailers? Without a retail impact study no one can say with any certainty what the effect on the high street would be, so what exactly could the PCC present residents with at a meeting in order to help them make up their minds?

[Porty]

There was discussion on whether the CC should call a public meeting and an offer was made by one member to arrange such a meeting . However, she pointed out two major problems. The first is a shortage of time - Phil understandably wants a decision a.s.a.p as the interest payments are racking up, but for the PCC to undertake widespread community consultation would involve a mail drop to every household and then a meeting, all of which takes time to arrange.

If PCC don't have a mechanism, inkling or time to consult their Community, they shouldn't even be discussing the application let alone making any statutory comments.

[Franck]

During the meeting, did any CC members suggest there was significant % of Portobello residents and business owners pro the proposed development?

I really think PCC need to be taken out of the equation by the council or BL walk away from the development, it's becoming almost like playground mentality and doing no good at all.

There was considerable 'heated' discussion Franck on whether members could truly identify the feeling of the community. Some members urged consultation, while others questioned if it is indeed possible to carry out a fair and meaningful consultation. Seanie's 'straw poll' was mentioned, along with attempts made by other members to consult, but all were open to criticism.

There was discussion on whether the CC should call a public meeting and an offer was made by one member to arrange such a meeting . However, she pointed out two major problems. The first is a shortage of time - Phil understandably wants a decision a.s.a.p as the interest payments are racking up, but for the PCC to undertake widespread community consultation would involve a mail drop to every household and then a meeting, all of which takes time to arrange. Then there's the issue that seems to be the stumbling block for many, who are unable to decide one way or another- will the proposed new supermarket have a detrimental effect on local retailers? Without a retail impact study no one can say with any certainty what the effect on the high street would be, so what exactly could the PCC present residents with at a meeting in order to help them make up their minds?

So it sounds like the The PCC are unable to agree on what position it should take for the community at large?Any suggestions made looks to have issues from one side or the other, so why not let the application run like any other normal application?Why does The PCC have to be involved if they cannot decide how to represent the community?It sounds like the emptiest of empty vessels.

Let BL get on with their side of things, and when a planning comes around, people will have the opportunity to have their say.BL will have to take a chance that they have gauged the mood of Portobello correctly, whereas The PCC ( or factions within) have only represented the nimbyist loud faction in the community, then lets leave it upto planning to decide, much like they did in Bellfield Lane.

[Grunk]

There was discussion on whether the CC should call a public meeting and an offer was made by one member to arrange such a meeting . However, she pointed out two major problems. The first is a shortage of time - Phil understandably wants a decision a.s.a.p as the interest payments are racking up, but for the PCC to undertake widespread community consultation would involve a mail drop to every household and then a meeting, all of which takes time to arrange.

Probably best not bother doing anything then, why try and and actually find out the oppinions of the people you represent when you can make a decision for them.

Then there's the issue that seems to be the stumbling block for many, who are unable to decide one way or another- will the proposed new supermarket have a detrimental effect on local retailers? Without a retail impact study no one can say with any certainty what the effect on the high street would be, so what exactly could the PCC present residents with at a meeting in order to help them make up their minds?

They could pose a question, something on the lines of :

If an independant retail study indicated there was no detremental retail impact on the high street shops, would you be in favour of the proposed development?

I personally think Portobello is lucky to have someone willing to invest in it. If we (by we I mean PCC, not actually me) keep getting applications thrown out, the time will come when no-one will bother even thinking about Portobello for anything, including the CEC.

Perhaps the members of the PCC should take a walk around some of the other high streets in Edinburgh and see how well they have faired without investment over the last 5-10 years.

[seanie]

At the meeting our local Liberal Democrat ward member, Cllr Stephen Hawkins, also advised against consulting the community on the basis that "if there'd been a referendum we would never have abolished hanging".

[Mark Cameron]

Does anyone know if there is a means of casting a vote of no confidence in the PCC to remove them from the equation and if so what would be needed to succeed? Given there's been no election to put them into their positions what would it take to remove them.

I'm not saying this is the route I favour but could be bargaining tool with which to force a consultation with the community.

[Franck]

Does anyone know if there is a means of casting a vote of no confidence in the PCC to remove them from the equation and if so what would be needed to succeed? Given there's been no election to put them into their positions what would it take to remove them.

I'm not saying this is the route I favour but could be bargaining tool with which to force a consultation with the community.

Whats it got to do with you?You dont even live in Portobello

[Grunk]

At the meeting our local Liberal Democrat ward member, Cllr Stephen Hawkins, also advised against consulting the community on the basis that "if there'd been a referendum we would never have abolished hanging".

Brilliant,
From Dictionary.com :

Council : an assembly of persons summoned or convened for consultation, deliberation, or advice.

So essentially the community council is in place to consult with the community.

At the next meeting, could you get this hawkins character to justify his position?

[Makaveli]

Something really does need to be done. Investement like this does not just come knocking on your doorstep everyday and the way the PCC seem to be holding this back is not right.

At a minimum they need to do a public consultation.

[Porty]

PCC have two Email addresses; one is directed to Nick Stroud and the other to Diana Cairns: joint Secretaries. As I've already said: Nick apologised for delaying my Email to PCC due to being on holiday, he did circulate on his return. The Email was sent on September 11th (2010). So why did Diana Cairns not circulate her copy? I've still not heard from Diana directly but I have had a verbal explanation from a 3rd party; Diana is telling people that on the day I sent my Email one of her cats was attacked by a dog. I believe the incident took place in Rosefield Park.

Given that Emails have a potentially infinite lifespan, i can only assume she is still to traumatised to forward Emails. Anyone else heard from her since September 11th?

[seashell]

There was considerable 'heated' discussion Franck on whether members could truly identify the feeling of the community. Some members urged consultation, while others questioned if it is indeed possible to carry out a fair and meaningful consultation. Seanie's 'straw poll' was mentioned, along with attempts made by other members to consult, but all were open to criticism.

I find this unbelievable. Without consulation there can be no infomed opinion and any decision made would be based on mere speculation, which of course opens the process up to prejudice.
As for the alter statement that a public referendum would never have abolished hanging, it reeks of superiority and a total disregard for the very public this person is supposed to represent.
What do the PCC wish to see happen to the site? BL Developments have a proposal that mixes houses, amenities and retail. It might not be perfect - but what is?

The PCC appears to follow an agenda set by a few key members, who misrepresent the wishes of the community (as witnessed by the planning application hooha) and then refuse to consult to find out what the actualy views of the local people are. One has to ask why... and for how long it can continue. IMO the PCC is totally discredited.

[Franck]

PCC have two Email addresses; one is directed to Nick Stroud and the other to Diana Cairns: joint Secretaries. As I've already said: Nick apologised for delaying my Email to PCC due to being on holiday, he did circulate on his return. The Email was sent on September 11th (2010). So why did Diana Cairns not circulate her copy? I've still not heard from Diana directly but I have had a verbal explanation from a 3rd party; Diana is telling people that on the day I sent my Email one of her cats was attacked by a dog. i believe the incident took place in Rosefield Park.

Well I can confirm that this incident did take place

[Porty]

Poor Cat. Given that Emails have a potentially infinite lifespan, I can only assume Diana is still too traumatised to forward Emails. Anyone else had heard from her since September 11th?

[Porty]

At the meeting our local Liberal Democrat ward member, Cllr Stephen Hawkins, also advised against consulting the community on the basis that "if there'd been a referendum we would never have abolished hanging".

Is that the same Cllr Hawkins who is fond of publically decrying almost every consultation his employer conducts for not being inclusive or in depth enough?

[Mark Cameron]

I guess the bottom line here is whether the PCC views are actually worth a jot when considered by CEC during the planning application process.

Someone (was it Seanie?) posted interesting information that showed a number of planning applications that PCC had objected to but that were actually passed by Edinburgh Council.................so maybe we need not worry as the outcome is likely to be that the CEC will consider the plan on it's own merits?

[gillian]

"At the meeting our local Liberal Democrat ward member, Cllr Stephen Hawkins, also advised against consulting the community on the basis that "if there'd been a referendum we would never have abolished hanging"."

Enough! is Cllr Hawkins saying that we shouldn't be consulted as we can't be trusted to make the "right" decision?

I shall wait until I find this comment in the minutes of the meeting, because surely a gem of a statement like this would not be omitted, and then I will take it to whatever body regulates the PCC. Not sure who this is but I will find out. This is no longer about whether BL get the go ahead or whether the PCC have any real clout but about the fact that my democratic right is being ignored. Written like that it sounds very dramatic but there you go thats how I feel.

[wangi]

I shall wait until I find this comment in the minutes of the meeting, because surely a gem of a statement like this would not be omitted

Don't hold your breath - very much doubt it'll make the minutes. but I can back up Seanie that Cllr Hawkins did use that colourful statement... (I was sitting directly behind him when he said it).

L/

[Franck]

I shall wait until I find this comment in the minutes of the meeting, because surely a gem of a statement like this would not be omitted

Don't hold your breath - very much doubt it'll make the minutes. but I can back up Seanie that Cllr Hawkins did use that colourful statement... (I was sitting directly behind him when he said it).

L/

So that begs the question, who on the council takes the minutes, or did so on the 27th?

[Porty]

There is no chance it will make the minutes. Minutes are not verbatim and his live in partner is the secretary .
I 'm happy to take Sean and Wangi's word for it.

Did either of you hear the Councillor informing another PCC member that if he were unhappy with the Chairing of the meeting he should leave?

[wangi]

I'd pity anyone who had to come up with representative minutes for the meeting on Monday!

The atmosphere was quite "charged" at times...

[Porty]

Was there a City Council observer present?

[Porty]

http://tescno.blogspot.com/

An interesting and pertinent blog from an anti- Tesco group in Sheringham. Residents are having referendum today to determine which use of Land they favour; Tesco or a Waitrose managed Eco type store.

A few local councillors have been referred to the Standard Commission and one was asked to leave a Council meeting where the application was being discussed.

Not read it all yet but its been going on for 14 Years.

[Makaveli]

Just an idea but would an event like the Organic Market happening tomorrow not be good for the PCC to try and gather some opinions on the BL developments issue? Or at least try and get some e-mail address's to later gather some opinions on the issue?

I am not suggesting that it is done tomorrow (short notice and all that) but should be thought about for the November Market as I am sure the vast majority of people there will be from the local community.

[Grunk]

I don't know whether the kind of folk who shop at an organic market are going to be neutral when offering opinions on a supermarket?

[philip myerscough]

The proposal is not for a supermarket! The question is "do you want a development of 500+ new homes; 1000+ new people living and shopping in Portobello; the end of an eyesore at the entrance to Portobello; new public square; new GP surgery, dentists' surgery, alternative therapies and pharmacy; artists studios, recording studios and music school combined in new facilities with performance space and cafe; and, yes, a Waitrose foodstore a bit smaller than the one in Morningside".

[Makaveli]

A development that Portobello badly needs in my opinion - I don't see why folk keep going on about new foodstore killing the hight street surely getting a potential 1000 new customers would help revitalise the hight street?

[seashell]

I agree. this is a development within a few minutes walk of the High Street - not a car drive away. Surely it has the greatest change of bringing more people to the High Street and helping to revitalise it - something which has long been talked about as badly needed on this board. Plus there are social/community facilities too. While some people might not view it as "perfect" (and what ever is?) it's pretty good and it has to be encouraging that the developers are willing to engage in discussions with the community.
There is a clear public perception among some sectors (e.g. evening News correspondants) that Porty automatically says "no" to anything new. In order to go forward - some compromises have to be made - and not only by the developpers. Otherwise things will just stagnate.

[Bob Jefferson]

There is no chance it will make the minutes. Minutes are not verbatim and his live in partner is the secretary .
I 'm happy to take Sean and Wangi's word for it.

Did either of you hear the Councillor informing another PCC member that if he were unhappy with the Chairing of the meeting he should leave?

I wasn't there so can't comment, but the story goes that the PCC member in question is a man of the cloth. Rumour also has it that Cllr Hawkins intends to flourish a letter from Waitrose at the next meeting, which categorically denies that Waitrose has any intention of operating a supermarket in Portobello any time soon. If this is true then BL should come clean and stop using the Waitrose brand to persuade the chattering classes of Portobello to support their plans. The phrase 'Waitrose-style' is both misleading and meaningless. Let's have a list of those supermarkets who are genuinely interested in operating this store.

[wangi]

Although again focussing on one small aspect of the overall plan. It's a shame for the rest of the scheme to be largely ignored as battle lines are drawn.

[Bob Jefferson]

That's largely because people in general don't have a problem with the residential aspect of the proposals. If people like myself have misgivings, it's about the supermarket element and it doesn't help when BL is spinning us lines suggesting that Waitrose is going to be the operator when this is patently untrue.

[wangi]

Rumour also has it that Cllr Hawkins intends to flourish a letter from Waitrose at the next meeting, which categorically denies that Waitrose has any intention of operating a supermarket in Portobello any time soon.

... when this is patently untrue.

Well it's a jump from a rumour of a letter to something being taken as gospel. All I've heard is BL were talking to a representative of Waitrose...

In anycase what do you really prefer - any empty eyesore?

[Bob Jefferson]

I might also say 'I have it on good authority' but naturally I have to protect my sources. To be honest, the site has lain empty for so long that I don't even notice it and it wouldn't bother me particularly if it remained that way for another decade. What BL has to do, if they are confident they have the support of the community, is lodge an application. What the CC has to do is to ensure, through meaningful consultation with the community, that it fairly and accurately reflects our wishes and aspirations in its formal response to such an application.

[Porty]

I'm not sure Waitrose is the "must have" choice for the Porty community. Councillor Hawkins must be hoping to turn PCC against the proposal purely because it is not Waitrose. He really is prepared to go the extra mile to fulfill his personal wish list.

Waitrose, or indeed any organisation, who are being courted at this stage of a potential development, would be crazy to declare any interest. Why show your hand? If they are interested it would likely weaken their negotiating position and forewarn their competitors that they do have an interest. As far as I understand it; BL have spoken with Waitrose- thats it.