Bandstand on Prom

[Pal of Porty]

And the arguments against?

A distinction should be drawn between whether we need a bandstand and if so where should it be located. The current bandstand project seems to spring from the fact that we have a cake stand in the first place and that is therefore dictating the need and the location. I am against building a band stand because:

* I do not think it is the best use of precious cash.
* They are notoriously difficult to maintain.
* They are a congregating point for the youths that like drinking, graffitti etc as previously mentioned.
* They seldom get used for what they are intended.
* Shelter provided is relative. If you want to keep out the elements build a shelter not a bandstand.

With regard to location if there ever was a bandstand to be built, then I think our forefathers had the correct idea - they put theirs at the Paddling pool bit where the Prom is at its widest.

[Porty]

BTW

More support for the Belly dancers from Janet Fenton “The Belle Starrs playing there for the Strip the Willows and eightsome reels on the prom

I've never seen bellydancers do a "Strip the Willow" Porty. I think you're confusing your Celtic Rock with your Turkish Delight.

I think you mistake my drift. (and I can see why)I wasn't suggesting that the Belle Starrs would be belly dancing. I was highlighting the contrasting inclemental desires of the local but quite different dance troupes.

[Porty]

To be honest I think a bandstand would end up a folly much like the structure at the East end of the Prom.

I regret to say that I differ with you here Wangi. I think it would start off as a folly, exactly like the structure (formerly known as a bandstand) at the East end of the Prom. As it happens, a local police officer just popped in to our office and I asked him if the "east end structure" caused any issues. He confirmed that it is a constant source of complaint and takes up quite a bit of police time. It is often referred to as the Bandit stand.

[wangi]

I couldn't quite picture it, so I walked all the way along there beyond the House of Wang to the Edge of the Known World. Frankly, it would have been much easier if you had just pictured it and posted it for me.

Actaully I think I do have a few photos of it up...

http://www.pbase.com/wangi/portobello

It's interesting that the "structure" actually gets as many people (mainly the Japanese) taking a photo of it as the view down the beach from the same point. Eeek.

[Gemini]

I am inclined to agree with POP, (Incidentally, why do we need another
Bandstand?)


If there really has to be another - why couldn't it be constructed in one of the Parks! eg. Daisy,Brighton or Rosefield? or perhaps in the
centre of the proposed development at the Pitz

Just a thought

[Bob Jefferson]

Don't have time this evening to respond to the many interesting points made, but for the record 18% of boys and 17% of the girls from the 558 PHS pupils who took part in the survey voted for a skateboard park .

If we assume the respondents to be representative of the 1800? or so in total, then there are around 315 local kids who would appreciate such a facility and who have waited a very long time for it.

Not that this has anything to do with a bandstand. I think the people concerned were just flagging this up as another thing we should be looking at.

[Porty]

Don't have time this evening to respond to the many interesting points made, but for the record 18% of boys and 17% of the girls from the 558 PHS pupils who took part in the survey voted for a skateboard park.

As opposed to what?

If we assume the respondents to be representative of the 1800? or so in total, then there are around 315 local kids who would appreciate such a facility and who have waited a very long time for it.

School role is 1450, even if the survey is accepted as representative in relation to skateboard facility demand then that wipes 69 off the the 315. We can safely assume that most skateboarders are in first or second year and that they couldn't skateboard to any great skill level until they were 7 or 8. Which means they have only been waiting 4 or 5 years, its not very long. Also many PHS kids do not live in close proximity to the prom, many parents do not want their kids playing on the prom. The numbers are dwindling down to about the 4 that Wangi suggests

Not that this has anything to do with a bandstand.

Exactly, the PHS music department may have been a better example to use.

I think the people concerned were just flagging this up as another thing we should be looking at.

Eh? In the first post there was a stated intention to apply for lottery money.

[Epykat]

The rest of the teenages are too busy "drinking and sh*gging" (as it's been put already) to waste time trying to break their skulls open.

That is such an insulting and negative thing to say! Okay, I concede, we have had our share of teenager problems in the area of late but in the great scheme of things they were a handful of kids - certainly not the majority. You are falling into the trap of doing nothing IN CASE a minority abuse it. This is doing a huge disservice to the kids who are just being kids and who deserve to be treated like human beings and members of the community and not as some alien beings or outlaws. The survey we did at PHS took in first to fourth years and some fifth and sixth years as well. The kids took the time to fill in these forms because they hoped that we were going to listen to their opinion and take them seriously. Neither of which seems to be happening. They've consistently asked for a skateboard park and we, as a community, should be doing our utmost to make that happen. As far as the bandstand goes - so, it's not going to last forever, nothing does, but for the time being and maybe for the next 30 years it would make the Prom look better. What are we waiting for? Aliens to come and do it all for us?

[wangi]

You are falling into the trap of doing nothing IN CASE a minority abuse it.

I don't think a skatepark (is that what they're called?) is a bad idea, just as with everything else these days it has to be justified. What is the point in spending a large amount of cash building such a facility if it'll only be used by a handful of people?

It is very easy to tick a box saying a skatepark is a good idea, but how about the reality behind the result - how many that responded that skatepark actually own a skateboard? How many use it regularly (say at least twice a week)? And how many make use of existing facilities nearby (Musselburgh was mentioned above)? How many are actually that in to it that they're not worried about facilities and just get out and do it (I think we're down to my four)?

I grew up in a village where we - the kids - actually pulled our fingers out and worked toward getting a half pipe built in a local park. So, how many are actually making an effort toward "their goal" of a skatepark, other than ticking a box?

Looking at the results of the survey it's clear that the participants could pick any option - if they had to choose one option out of the four I'm pretty sure that the skatepark would get very few votes. After all, it was the least popular choice anyway!

[Epykat]

I wasn't talking just about the skatepark specifically. So many people that I've come across whilst being involved with teenagers have been so incredibly negative. They don't want anything built anywhere for the specific use of teenagers. They assume it will a) not be used, b) it will be used by too many of them c) it will be vandalised. So is the answer just to do nothing and constantly phone the Police because they're hanging about? I really just don't see the logic in that. We have the opportunity to do something and yet the opposition is overwhelming.

[Porty]

I wasn't talking just about the skatepark specifically. So many people that I've come across whilst being involved with teenagers have been so incredibly negative. They don't want anything built anywhere for the specific use of teenagers. They assume it will a) not be used, b) it will be used by too many of them c) it will be vandalised. So is the answer just to do nothing and constantly phone the Police because they're hanging about? I really just don't see the logic in that. We have the opportunity to do something and yet the opposition is overwhelming.

With all due respect I think you are missing the point . The subject under discussion is and I quote; "Bandstand on the Prom". In an effort to justify the construction of a Bandstand there was an attempt to assign a dual purpose, a skatepark. This has led to confusion, can I appeal to commonsense and lets revert to the original proposal to seek Lottery funding for a Bandstand.

A Bandstand is not a suitable structure or entertainment for Youths. There is nothing to do. The Youths that congregate at an unsupervised Bandstand are liable to be the spoilers, the drinkers, the stop outs, the troublemakers. I have no idea if a skatepark would attract a different culture but as far as I am aware there are no plans to site a skatepark on the cake stand.

I honestly believe that whomever came up with the idea, started with a circular cake stand and decided what could go on top? Once they had decided on a bandstand they then tried to justify their decision. Its not demand led, its not suitable for many of the supposed purposes (climbing frame, youth shelter or skatepark). Bob did ask for feedback and he has had some good responses but there hasn't been a single one that got anywhere near to convincing me that a bandstand is a wise choice for spending £50,000.

Where does one find the results of the PHS survey?

[Pal of Porty]

...That is such an insulting and negative thing to say! Okay, I concede, we have had our share of teenager problems in the area of late but in the great scheme of things they were a handful of kids - certainly not the majority. You are falling into the trap of doing nothing IN CASE a minority abuse it.

In my earlier post about reasons why I did not want to see a bandstand I gave four reasons, only one of which made a reference to youths, which was:

"They are a congregating point for the youths that like drinking, graffitti etc as previously mentioned"

You will note that I said "the youths that like" not ALL youths as I am most certainly not referring to the majority. I do however believe a bandstand does attract the drinkers etc.

[Brian McCrow]

If you don't like the idea of a bandstand what else would you like in Porty and where. And how would we justify £50,000 worth of Lottery money against criteria such as catering for different sections of the Community, sustainable, developing the Community, assisting disadvantaged sections of the Community.

[Pal of Porty]

If you don't like the idea of a bandstand what else would you like in Porty and where.

I am not sure whether my response is to be limited to £50k or not but I am really clear what I want for Porty.

I would like to see a proper Promenade stretch from the C&D home to the pumping station that would reflect Edinburgh as a capital city. It would cater for walkers and cyclists, be widened in areas, have proper railings and paving stones to walk on and plants etc. I would also blow up (but would accept relocate) all the garages on Seafield Road and replace them with housing and a few shops, cafe etc, so it becomes more like the Joppa end. A similar exercise has been completed for many years now in Newcastle by the banks of the Tyne and it is now magical. What used to be an under used facility is now the crown jewel.

I would also extensively refurbish the Town Hall to ensure that it is extensively used and really becomes a focal point for all in the community. It could even play a joint role and become the new Community Centre. However, I do not know anything about Lottery rules and what the money can be used for. But for a straight £50k, rather than a bandstand, I would prefer things like:

* more books and computers in the library
* a controversial piece of art on the Kings Road roundabout as a talking point to welcome you to Porty
* Give a suitable individual a 2 year contract at £25k per year (or 1 yr at £50k) to lead the definition of what Porty needs then go and secure the funding.

Etcetera, etcetera

[Porty]

I echo much of what PoP has said on the matter, its a big task. Acquiring Lottery money is a long process in which due dilligence has to be conducted. The purpose had to be clearly defined and the need proven.

If you don't like the idea of a bandstand what else would you like in Porty and where.

I'm getting frustrated. This is not a matter of liking or dis-liking a bandstand. And what else we would like in Porty should be discussed somewhere other than the "Bandstand on the Prom" thread.

And how would we justify £50,000 worth of Lottery money against criteria such as catering for different sections of the Community, sustainable, developing the Community, assisting disadvantaged sections of the Community.

Excellent point. May I be so bold as to ask the pro-bandstanders to justify their cause in the terms which you describe. If it can't be done then there is little or no hope for lottery money.

I also take issue with the assumption that there is £50,000 worth of lottery money just waiting to be had for Portobello. I believe a community has a limited number of pitches that it can make to the Lottery. Whilst this is not literally the case, once funds have been granted for one project in an area then that area must surely go down the pecking order. If and when we ever do go, our pitch should be big, as I previously stated more ambitious.

PoP's idea of getting funding for feasibility as part of an eventual much larger pitch and project,is excellent.

[Bob Jefferson]

I'm not sure I will ever find time to respond to all the points that I disagree with on this thread, but let's start here:

...for the record 18% of boys and 17% of the girls from the 558 PHS pupils who took part in the survey voted for a skateboard park.

As opposed to what?

I thought I had posted the results of the questionnaire already. The pdfs are certainly on the site. Anyway, here are the links:


Questionnaire


Results

School role is 1450, even if the survey is accepted as representative in relation to skateboard facility demand then that wipes 69 off the the 315. We can safely assume that most skateboarders are in first or second year and that they couldn't skateboard to any great skill level until they were 7 or 8. Which means they have only been waiting 4 or 5 years, its not very long. Also many PHS kids do not live in close proximity to the prom, many parents do not want their kids playing on the prom. The numbers are dwindling down to about the 4 that Wangi suggests

OK, 1800 was a wild guess. I accept there are around 250 local skateboard enthusiasts. And in fact, support for a skateboard facility is pretty consistent across the age range.

The facility at Broomhouse is a great example. It caters for a range of ages and skill levels and it is designed to be suitable for in-line skaters and bmx as well as skaters so would have even wider appeal.

But, as I've already stated, none of this has anything whatever to do with a bandstand, so let's start a new thread on skateboarding provision.

[Bob Jefferson]

If there really has to be another - why couldn't it be constructed in one of the Parks! eg. Daisy,Brighton or Rosefield? or perhaps in the
centre of the proposed development at the Pitz

Just a thought

Firstly, I don't accept that the structure at the pumping station is a bandstand. People may call it a bandstand for want of a better word, in which case it is not fit for purpose.

Secondly, we don't have to have a bandstand and obviously we won't waste our time progressing the idea unless there is clear support for it.

Finally, I think a bandstand would look great in any of the parks you mention but from a performer's point of view they are going to want to maximise their potential audience and I would suggest that on that score the Prom wins hands down.

[Porty]

Bob

Survey

From what I can gather, the survey gave each kid 10 points to allocate to 4 chioices. Cafe/Club, Shelter, 5-a-side/basketball and a Skatepark. They allocated ponits 4,3,2,1, with 4 being awarded to their most favoured choice. This means that every option was guaranteed at least 10% of the vote, as each kid had to vote at least 1 point for that option. So with 558 kids voting ; had "Being kept in all summer and thrashed every morning" been one of the four options, it would have got at least 558 points; 10% of the vote

Skatepark got 997 points, 558 kids voted so it only attracted 439 points more than the minimum. There were 3226 "floating" points available to be divvied up among the 4 options. That means that skatepark attracted 439/3226 of floating points or 13%. It was least favourite by miles. You cannot use this survey as justification for a skatepark. (there may be other evidence and I'm not saying a skatepark is not justifiedb but you can't go on this survey.)

You suggested the survey demonstrated that at least 315 kids were into skateboarding, that's nonsense. All 558 kids were forced to "vote for" a skatepark.

[Porty]

I'm not sure I will ever find time to respond to all the points that I disagree with on this thread,....

Then don't, instead of addressing the supposed negatives, concentrate on substantiating claims like the one you made; (a bandstand) will "benefit the whole community". You will need to, if you are going to convince the lottery.

Many bandstands are located in Parks, like the one on Hampstead Heath. The weather on the seafront (Windy) is not suitable for musical or other performances on the greatest majority of days. You may remember Drew Kennedy used to his saturday morning puppet shows in Brighton Park (huge attendance) rather than the Prom.

Apparently there are Bandstands, funky and of modern, fun design, that can be towed from one local venue to another. And stored over the Winter. If we are to have a bandstand this seems far more preferable than a fixed affair on the cake stand.

[Gemini]

I'm not sure I will ever find time to respond to all the points that I disagree with on this thread,....

Then don't, instead of addressing the supposed negatives, concentrate on substantiating claims like the one you made; (a bandstand) will "benefit the whole community". You will need to, if you are going to convince the lottery.

Many bandstands are located in Parks, like the one on Hampstead Heath. The weather on the seafront (Windy) is not suitable for musical or other performances on the greatest majority of days. You may remember Drew Kennedy used to his saturday morning puppet shows in Brighton Park (huge attendance) rather than the Prom.

Apparently there are Bandstands, funky and of modern, fun design, that can be towed from one local venue to another. And stored over the Winter. If we are to have a bandstand this seems far more preferable than a fixed affair on the cake stand.

Agree.

[Bob Jefferson]

I thought I had updated this thread - or did I post about it elsewhere? Anyway, we submitted our proposal, we were told that we had been shortlisted, someone came along to meet with a deputation from Portobello Community Council but we were unable to provide all the assurances they required in time so we reluctantly withdrew our application.

One of the stumbling blocks was that we had to demonstrate that we had planning permission and building consent for the structure. This would have cost in the region of £800 - a huge sum to ask the CC to stump up for when there was no guarantee that our bid would be successful. Ultimately, there were just too many loose ends that we couldn't tie up to make the deadline. We haven't given up yet though and are now hoping to get an LDC grant to cover the upfront costs so that we can try again next year.

[Epykat]

That's a shame Bob. It's not until you really get into these things that you realise how much work is involved just in the application form!

[Porty]

One of the stumbling blocks was that we had to demonstrate that we had planning permission and building consent for the structure. This would have cost in the region of £800 - a huge sum to ask the CC to stump up for when there was no guarantee that our bid would be successful. .

POL could make a substantial contribution from our fund raising pot. That would be a very good PR move from the on-line community.

I'm not really surprised that the proposal failed and I don't wish to critiscise whomever put it together but it sounds like the whole thing was a bit rushed. I have been a couple of similar projects for private clubs and something like 80% of applications fail, either poor preparation by the applicants or the applicants failing to come up with their cash stake. What were the other stumbling blocks Bob?

[Bob Jefferson]

It was only rushed in that from the moment we knew that we were short-listed we were then given a very short period of time in which to provide further information regarding proof of ownership of the land, planning consents etc. This meant liaising with a number of different council departments and Scottish Water. They wanted structural surveys, drawings, costs etc.

The people involved in the bid did their best and haven't given up on the idea yet. Weren't you against the bandstand from the beginning?

[Porty]

Edit

. Weren't you against the bandstand from the beginning?

No, not at all. I questioned the basis on which a bandstand was given priority. And I questioned statements that you and some others made like; a bandstand would be of tremendous benefit to the whole community. During the debate there was no substantiation to support the statements made, i have yet to see any.

So, just to clarify the matter; I was not, am not, against a bandstand, I would need to be convinced that it was going to be a community benefit and that it was value for money and so on . With all due respect, it seems that if someone challenges a statement or a position that you support on POL you are to quick to identify him or her as being "against" and this is frequently followed by an accusation of a personal attack. It is simply not the case.

You mentioned that there were other stumbling blocks to the proposal/application, what were they?

Do you think making a donation from POL funds would prove to be a benefit to the whole community, as well as providing great PR for the site?

The people involved in the bid did their best and haven't given up on the idea yet.

I don't know who the people are who were involved in the bid. I find it difficult to accept that they did their best; the project fell at the first hurdle. It sounds like inspectors attended the scene to discover there was no permission to construct the short listed project.!! I am not against the idea but I am of the view that the proposal has not been thought through properly. I invite you to look at the evidence.

[Lambie]

This seems like a dangerous powder keg (I'm not sure if that's the right phrase. I mean explosive topic) to re-ignite. Not sure it's a good idea.

On the 28th of August the Cake Stand will pretty much BE a bandstand.

[Bob Jefferson]

I think it's a shame, in retrospect, that we didn't continue to pursue this idea. The bandstand would have made an attractive and useful addition to the Promenade. Ideally, it would have incorporated a built-in power supply to allow for amplified music and announcements without the need for a generator.

No reason why it couldn't be resurrected though?

[Lambie]

We should get a good idea of how popular the Cake Stand is on the 28th.

[Bob Jefferson]

So now I'm thinking that this could be a great idea for the Open Space Compensation Fund. Not just a bandstand, but an amphitheater for spectators built into Straiton Park and facing the sea.

[Puerto bella]

Along with a Meadows-style play park.

[Bob Jefferson]

Great! Something for everyone. Now we just need a friendly architect (or ex-architect even) to produce a drawing or artist's impression of what that might look like. And some rough costings.

[wangi]

Bob, get down to the Public Art House and you can see some... One of the ideas that come out of the consultation so far was for a reusable space that in the summer would be open and could be used as a performance / exhibition space and in the winter would be enclosed.

[Puerto bella]

Deja vu? One of the options on the Paddling Pool site was just that....

[Porty]

Great! Something for everyone. Now we just need a friendly architect (or ex-architect even) to produce a drawing or artist's impression of what that might look like. .

An Architect? Why not ask the Dentist at Brighton Place to do a couple of schematics?

[Bob Jefferson]

I imagine that would prove to be as successful as letting seanie take care of your dentistry requirements. I was thinking of taking a more traditional route. You know, obtain planning permission, then build it sort of thing.