Traffic Controlled Junction and Bus Lanes on Milton Road

Dave Connelly · Post by **Dave Connelly** » 01 Apr 2004, 13:48

City Wide Travel Improvements/Waste of taxpayers money and a danger to all

With reference to the above, I would like to voice my concerns regarding the proposed bus lanes in and around the Duddingston Park area and the change from a roundabout to a traffic controlled junction.

Firstly traffic lights at the junction of Milton Road and Duddingston Park/Duddingston Park South, (formerly Niddrie Road), were dispensed with a few years ago after several serious accidents. It was felt at the time that a roundabout would be safer.

One of the problems being that the sun shines, at the busiest time of the day directly into the eyes of motorists driving on Milton Road, towards town, thus blinding them to traffic lights.

This is of course still the case today at the pedestrian crossing, situated on Milton Road, between Park Avenue and Duddingston Park.

The roundabout in situ at present however is effective in slowing the traffic, and is more visible than the lights on the pedestrian crossing.

I have to cross at the pedestrian crossing regularly with my two children, aged 7 and 5. Both of who are now very wary, due to the number of close calls we have had on that very crossing with cars failing to stop at the red light.

It is a regular occurrence that vehicles jump the red light at speed, whilst the green crossing light is illuminated for pedestrians. This may be either through not seeing the red light or by trying to jump the light to gain the extra few yards, prior to being slowed down by the roundabout. In my opinion making the main junction traffic light controlled could prove fatal.

I have already expressed my concerns to Mr Andrew Easson from the Council and our local MP Gavin Strang as well as Naiomi Coleman, Senior consultant for the Steer Davies Group, 68 Ã¢â‚¬â€œ 70 George Street Edinburgh, who are spearheading this initiative.

I also feel strongly that it will be a loss of amenity to myself, family and friends who park in the street outside our home at present, as we would be forced to park on the other side of the road, and cross by foot, often with young children. I would understand this necessity if there was any perceivable benefit to having a bus lane approaching the junction, but I cannot see that the current volume of traffic or indeed buses justifies a bus lane.

Having made some enquiry into the matter, I am also concerned about the impact of parking restrictions on the value of our property. It is not a congested area, but to employ bus lanes would give the impression that it is and again the imposition of parking restrictions would devalue the property.

What do you think.

Post by **administrator** » 02 Apr 2004, 17:30

Maureen Child recently gave me a consultation document in PDF form on this subject. I will try to get this on the site ASAP, so that people can see exactly what is being proposed.

My personal view, for what it's worth, (and I'm posting as 'Bob' now but can't be bothered logging out/in) is that traffic light controlled junctions are generally safer than roundabouts, and I think the stats support this. They also provide better traffic management and for these reasons seem to be preferred to roundabouts nowadays. As a supporter of public transport I welcome any measure that improves travel times, at the expense of car users if necessary.

Having said that, there may be very good reasons why these measures are inappropriate for your particular circumstances and I wouldn't like to prejudge the issue without knowing all the facts. Hopefully, the consultation process will address your concerns, and those of everyone else with an interest.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 23 Nov 2006, 17:45

From tonight's EN:

Motorists face chaos on city roundabouts

Scorpion · Post by **Scorpion** » 23 Nov 2006, 20:20

That'll be great fun

I'm not sure that traffic lights are such a good idea at Duddingston park though. It might help at the Brunstane roundabout during the rush hour. In any event until the work is completed I'm sure it will be chaotic.

Novastar · Post by **Novastar** » 24 Nov 2006, 00:52

A lot of the bus lanes seem totally unnecessery. OK on Queen Street/York Place and maybe towards West End/Haymarket there might be a point but the one that seems silly to me (and appologies this is moving it further afield) is Ferry Road. There are about 3 routes along here (21, 7 and 14) 1 bus every 5 minutes or so. Why do we ned to totally shut off a lane of traffic on an already busy road?

IMHO it smacks of trying to control people bringing their cars into the city by giving them so much congestion they can't use them once they're here (similar to my opinion on the new parking restrictions). I'm not a driver but I realise cars are needed (particularly with the awful bus service in some parts of Edinburgh), something the council don't seem to realise.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 27 Dec 2006, 10:56

From Maureen Child's November report:

Milton Link Road-Works Starting January

The removal of the roundabout at the Milton Link starts on January 15th. The full bus priority works involve pedestrian crossings and new bus shelters along the length and approaches to the roundabouts at Milton Road and Duddingston Park, where the roundabout will also be replaced. It will last at least until mid November 2007. The work will inevitably cause disruption to traffic. But, I can assure you that the very silly proposal to use land in the Magdalene estate as a materials store for the road-works was knocked firmly on the head early on. My personal thanks to residents for the petition they raised very swiftly, but it was already a dead duck by the time the petition reached me. When the works are complete, consideration will be given to the location of bus stops and double yellow lines on corners.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 27 Dec 2006, 11:47

I never got round to publishing those drawings I was given back in April 2004, so here they are now. I will find out if any changes have been made to the proposals in the meantime and publish new drawings if necessary.

Overview

Sheet 1

Sheet 2

Sheet 3

Sheet 4

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 27 Dec 2006, 12:52

Mike Trotter is the person within City Development responsible for this particular scheme. I have left a message asking him to send me up to date drawings when he returns to work.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 27 Dec 2006, 15:38

Bob could you ask Mike Trotter for any info he has on volume and frequency of traffic along Milton Road in both directions?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 27 Dec 2006, 15:52

Certainly. If you, or anyone else, has further points you would like clarified, post them here and I will take them up with him.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 27 Dec 2006, 19:37

Ok and thanks. I am mainly interested in the flow along Milton Road both directions between 7:45am and 8:30 am Monday to Friday. However, broader data would be of some interest too.

I find it hard to accept that school relocation is going to have any significant impact on Milton Road despite the scare story in the Evening News.

The school relocation will displace traffic, I can't see any basis for jumping to the conclusion that traffic will increase, why would it? We don't have gridlock in duddingston road at the moment and thats with two schools and only two lanes.

At present the school is served by the 5 and 42 buses (and possibly the 45, I don't know). The new school will still have the 5, 44 and some First Bus services. (do the 12 and 32 still run? If they do they will also be handy for the new school.

I'm going to raise the issue of how pupils get to school at the moment at the next school board meeting and suggest a survey of how many pupils are driven to school each day? It shall then be easy to extrapolate.

My opinion, based on observation, is that somewhere around 15 to 20% of pupils arrive by car, so when staff are included we could be looking at 200-300 school related journeys along Milton Road between 7:45am and 8:30.am. Some of these journeys will already be happening. This is not volume traffic and if it does somehow become a nightmare then many parents will opt out of the school run. It surely must be fairly easy to design a drop-off area where cars stop briefly and the kids alight.

Staff parking will be an interesting challenge. Personally, i don't want to see great swathes of tarmac parking space but I'm conscious that if parking is minmised then the "slack" is liable to be taken by the surrounding residential streets.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 28 Dec 2006, 13:58

Me being a bit older than most people who go to school I have never really got my head round this 'school run' lark. If a school is built on the park beside Milton Road then there will surely be a huge impact on traffic in the area. Am I right in thinking that catchment areas were designed so that children attended schools which were near their homes? When I attended the High School I lived in Meadowfield Drive and I, along with everyone else I knew, walked to school. I realise that times have changed and that their are lots of plump parents and even plumper children so it must therefore be essential that these children are driven any journey further that spitting distance. Call me simplistic but I think there's a connection between obesity and the car. If the new school is built in my lifetime I will take a stroll up to Milton Road to enjoy the spectacle of hundreds of children waddling away from cars which have been driven ten yards in order to park on a bus lane. Merry Christmas.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 28 Dec 2006, 15:34

tom nimmo wrote: Me being a bit older than most people who go to school I have never really got my head round this 'school run' lark. If a school is built on the park beside Milton Road then there will surely be a huge impact on traffic in the area.

What makes you so sure that the impact will be huge?

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 29 Dec 2006, 15:12

I suppose it is down to your definition of 'huge'. I may think something is huge when others disagree so, if I say that there is potential for traffic congestion to be significant, or just a bit huge, or not quite huge but possibly bigger than really big but not as gigantic as huge, would you accept that Porty? Whatever happens, I am confident our dilligent councillors will have completed all the traffic studies and the whole project, school buildings, new footer pitches, zero traffic congestion et al will all be dealt with and there will be problems as a result of this. Maybe by the time the school is built people will be more inclined to let their kids walk to school anyway. Somehow I doubt it though.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 29 Dec 2006, 15:17

Its a bit of non-specic answer Tom.

I'll try and break it down.

How many car journeys do you reckon the school will produce on a daily basis, 1200 pupils 100 staff?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 29 Dec 2006, 15:22

tom nimmo wrote:. Maybe by the time the school is built people will be more inclined to let their kids walk to school anyway. Somehow I doubt it though.

According to the office of national statistics; of children aged between 5 and 16, 19% travel to school by car.

I feel fairly certain as the kids age the percentage drops. There is no data available for PHS. I would guesstimate its no more than 10%.

Like you, when I was at school, 500 people in my year and only one regularly got a lift to school: Fraser Sutherland, its the only reason i remember him and his name.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/s ... ?vlnk=6034

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 29 Dec 2006, 17:18

Ian Maxwell lives in Portobello and has been involved with Spokes for many years. I have worked with him on local safer routes to school projects in the past. Spokes see a new-build PHS as a great opportunity to encourage cycling and sustainable travel in the area and Ian has promised to dig out any research he has on current travel to school patterns.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 30 Dec 2006, 17:42

Why are Spkes going to wait 10 years or so until the new school is built to encourage cycling and sustainable travel? I do my best to avoid cycling past the high school at closing time now because of the number of cars parked on the road and it is even worse at St John's. Having witnessed the way a fair number of high school kids cross Duddingston Road I dread to think how the much higher traffic levels on Milton Road will cope with such attitudes. Hopefully there will be plenty of safe crossing places put into the plans at the time and a programme of road safety training as part of the school's preparation for the move. Even at Tower Bank, which is ideally placed for cycling or walking to school, it is baffling to watch the streets round the school jammed with cars whose owners probably all live within 15 minutes walk away.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 30 Dec 2006, 18:07

To be fair to Spokes Tom, they have been encouraging cycling and sustainable travel for the last 30 years and many of the advantages that cyclists now enjoy are as a direct result of Spokes involvement.

Check them out at www.spokes.org.uk

I think the point is that with a new build you can design in cycle-friendly measures and safe routes from the outset. It's an exciting opportunity to put a lot of eco-friendly ideas in place and I'm sure that's something we can all agree on, regardless of what we think of the site selection.

The situation at Towerbank is much better than it used to be, but I agree that there is no need for any parent (unless their child has mobility problems) to park outside the school. For those parents on their way to work, Bridge St car park has spaces for 65 vehicles and is just a few minutes walk away.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 30 Dec 2006, 20:45

tom nimmo wrote:. Having witnessed the way a fair number of high school kids cross Duddingston Road I dread to think how the much higher traffic levels on Milton Road will cope with such attitudes. .

Yep, when one is driving down duddingston road it can be quite hairy as the kids spill out onto the road. I think this is partly because it is relatively quiet road and traffic is calm. Milton Road is a different prospect altogether, however the number of pupils who have to cross Milton Road to get to and from school will likely diminish. It will certainly not be any higher than it is at the moment.

The new school is not going to produce more traffic than the current school in fact it ought to be less, as its a smaller school.

Messalina · Post by **Messalina** » 30 Dec 2006, 21:09

The traffic is going to get much worse here anyway I suspect. Forward projections show an increase in vehicles driving through all parts of the City by another 25% within two years.

That's one reason why the planned new schools are hopefully all being built away from the main arterials in and out of the cty centre.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 31 Dec 2006, 01:06

Messalina wrote: The traffic is going to get much worse here anyway I suspect. Forward projections show an increase in vehicles driving through all parts of the City by another 25% within two years.

I take the forecast at face value but there is no reason I can think of as to why the relocation of PHS will add even one extra car journey to the existing situation.

Messalina wrote: That's one reason why the planned new schools are hopefully all being built away from the main arterials in and out of the cty centre.

Suburban secondary schools are not high volume traffic generators. A petrol station or decent sized health centre will generate more traffic.

A school being on a major arterial route is seen as advantageous in terms of access. We will have to wait for the results of the traffic impact survey but from a commonsense perspective the school traffic will make very little difference. Asda used to be located only a few hundred yards from the new school site, it must generate 100 or 150, (far more at holidays and christmas) times the traffic that the school will and the A1 coped. Look at the impact of the ERI on its surrounding streets. The ERI is not on an A road or at least I don't believe it is, it generates 20,30 , maybe more,times the traffic that the school will on a daily basis. The streets around the ERI cope.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 25 Jan 2007, 18:01

From today's EN:

Police catch drivers dodging roadworks on illegal rat run

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 25 Jan 2007, 19:20

Silly folk thinking they'd avoid the road works, as there's even more at the other end of the Jewel at the railway bridge on Duddingston Park South so it's just as slow trying to use that road

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 27 Jan 2007, 15:07

From today's EN:

Gas leak adds to traffic woes

Rat-run motorists damage cars parked on side streets

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 27 Jan 2007, 22:07

I've just negotiated the roundabout at the Milton Link for the first time since the RW started. That has got to be a complete daymare at "rush" hour.

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 28 Jan 2007, 00:48

Yeah. Know someone who works at Asda, says his only joy recently was being stuck in the queue next to an Astin Martin, his wee banger was traveling as fast as the AM but his petrol gauge was going down slower!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 30 Jan 2007, 20:43

As a postscript to Maureen's report on this matter in her most recent newsletter, she adds the following:

I have asked for more detailed information from traffic engineers on the justification for the roadwork's at the Milton Road East roundabout (beyond their information leaflet), at the request of one or two frustrated commuters. The situation should improve in he next few days as the junction returns to two lanes. The 30 week timetable is also conservative. It may take 20 weeks if all goes smoothly. Still a long time, though!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 31 Jan 2007, 19:02

From Lawrence Marshall:

Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984: Section 14
Brunstane Road, Edinburgh

The City of Edinburgh Council hereby give notice under Section 14(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, as amended, that for the reason set out in Section 14(1) c of that act and to ensure the safety of pedestrians and other road users during the current Milton Road bus priority improvement scheme, Brunstane Road will be closed to through traffic at its junction with Milton Road East, from 06:00 hrs on Thursday 1 February 2007 to 06:00 on Thursday 15 February 2007.

The alternative route for vehicular traffic shall be by way of Brunstane Road, Joppa Road, Musselburgh Road and Milton Road East.

Emergency vehicular access and pedestrian flow shall be maintained.

This notice has a maximum duration of 14 days.

John Gill
Area Road Manager
South & East

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 27 Feb 2007, 18:18

From Maureen Child:

This is my own ‘Frequently Asked Questions’ note. I’ve based it on information taken from nearly 50 e mails with Council officers and constituents, meetings and conversations I have over the last few weeks about the road works, their purpose and progress. Please let me have any other questions, comments or feedback.

Milton Road Roadworks FAQ

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 01 Mar 2007, 15:17

Watch out if you try to avoid the works by going through Newcraighall, to Musselburgh, there's road works near the school, looks like water main burst.
Notice they're digging holes in the road around Colliesdene.
And the roadworks were still in place in Duddingston Road, though I did see a workman there yesterday, in a van , eating his piece.
And the Park is closed due to rockfall.
Happy Motoring!

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 02 Mar 2007, 13:30

Wondered why the park was shut.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 04 Mar 2007, 14:59

SoupDragon wrote:And the Park is closed due to rockfall.
Happy Motoring!

I cycled home from Gorgie Road on Thursday last week and was chuffed to bits when I reached the park at the Commonwealth Pool to find that the road to Duddingston was reserved for my personal use. A couple of blokes were climbing up ropes but there was not a fallen rock to be seen anywhere. I live in the forlorn hope that one day the park roads will be permanently closed to cars, but I'm not holding my breath.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 04 Mar 2007, 15:18

Closed to motor vehicles on Sundays of course. Otherwise I think it is too dangerous for cycling. You do have the alternative of the Innocent Cycle Path, which I used when I worked in Chambers Street.

From a local motorist's POV, the park via Duddingston is a very useful route and one I use myself to work in the morning. I was less than happy with Historic Scotland on the first morning it was closed. There was no indication whatsoever of a road closure at the junction with Duddingston Road. I did wonder why there were so many vehicles coming out of the park right enough but I only discovered the reason when I finally got as far as Duddingston Kirk. So all day, and no doubt the following day as well, a steady procession of vehicles drove as far as the Kirk, turned in the car park and queued to drive back out again. My alternative route via Cameron Toll added an extra 20 minutes to my journey time and made me late for work.

So what's the problem with advising motorists before they turn into Kirk Road? Historic Scotland advise me that there are two issues. Firstly, they only have responsibility for the park and are not entitled to erect signs outwith it. They would have to liaise with the Council about that. Secondly, the owners of the Sheep Heid aren't happy with 'road closed' signs at the junction as it discourages trade. I suggested that perhaps some compromise could be sought. A sign that read 'access only'?

I used the bypass for the rest of the week.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 04 Mar 2007, 16:00

Bob Jefferson wrote:Closed to motor vehicles on Sundays of course. Otherwise I think it is too dangerous for cycling.

The danger is what makes cycling in Edinburgh so much fun. I like to make eye contact with motorists who get too close to me and let them know that they are in my personal space. Most drivers think cyclists are bampots anyway and try to avoid coming too close. A dozy driver just about had me off my bike on Seafield Road a couple of years ago so when I caught up with him I removed his nearside mirror as it did not seem to be of any use. Kings Road roundabout is best avoided, especially nowadays as cars are driving on to it to claim a space even though there is no immediate exit available. The spindle on my back wheel once snapped as I was negotiating the roundabout. Now that was exciting.