Charity Shops in Portobello

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 10 May 2006, 10:28

I know we have touched on this subject elsewhere, but it is becoming such a big issue that I felt it deserved its own thread.

No-one wants to see shops lying empty but surely we have an over-provision of charity shops in Portobello High Street? As has been noted, they have considerable advantages over other traders in that they only pay 20% rates. They typically employ an experienced manager but rely on volunteers as shop assistants. Many brands have become huge businesses with enormous buying power, as much a part of the identikit high street as Boots or Pizza Hut.

Increasingly, these businesses are moving away from re-cycling second-hand clothes to stocking new products and are able to under-cut established businesses.

If you had just opened a doll's house shop in Portobello High Street, you probably wouldn't be too chuffed to find that a Sue Ryder shop a few feet away had decided to stock dolls houses as well but that is exactly what has happened.

This is not just a problem in Portobello but a national problem. Until now, Portobello Online has offered charity shops free listings on our online directory because that seemed the right thing to do. We are now re-considering that policy. Maybe it is time the Government had another look at the situation as well?

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 10 May 2006, 15:05

Must admit, I have never seen so many charity shops anywhere than there are in Portobello. Im not a fan myself but know people who are and I still reckon its better than shops lying empty.

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 10 May 2006, 15:20

Sandra wrote:Must admit, I have never seen so many charity shops anywhere than there are in Portobello. Im not a fan myself but know people who are and I still reckon its better than shops lying empty.

Never been to Stockbridge or Morningside or even Corstorphine? I don't know %age to "real" shops but still a "lot" in those places.

portocat · Post by **portocat** » 12 May 2006, 08:06

What's the score with that Salon shop - it looks like it is meant to be a hairdressers but has diversified into being a junk shop. Sometimes when I go past on the bus there are several people sitting on the many chairs outside, is it a hairdressers and a junk shop rolled into one? or just a hairdressers with lots and lots of furniture?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 12 May 2006, 08:49

I suspect that the people sitting on the chairs may well be smokers from the pub next door. I'm sure someone told me a story recently about some kind of minor fracas regarding this.

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 12 May 2006, 09:19

Bob Jefferson wrote:I suspect that the people sitting on the chairs may well be smokers from the pub next door. I'm sure someone told me a story recently about some kind of minor fracas regarding this.

Is it still a hairdressers at all? And there's nothing to suggest it's a charity junk shop, is there?

Plug said that he'd seen police activity thereabouts recently - so that'll be what it was about, I suppose?

gilo · Post by **gilo** » 12 May 2006, 09:53

Bob Jefferson wrote:

This is not just a problem in Portobello but a national problem. Until now, Portobello Online has offered charity shops free listings on our online directory because that seemed the right thing to do. We are now re-considering that policy. Maybe it is time the Government had another look at the situation as well?

I have to disagree. The charity I work for can only provide many of its services through the top ups it gets from voluntary funds. Therefore the charities must try and maintain or increase these funds. Without them services to very disadvantaged individuals and communities would disappear. I'm not sure of stats but shops contribute to these funds.

I wouldn't like small independent businesses to suffer as a consequence, but surely the threat comes from supermarkets and consumers buying everything from Asda-Wallmart rather than the charity shop.

As a resident I'd love to see many varied shops on the high street, I think this is possible to do this with charity shops also being there.

Last point - how should charities raise funds if not through shops - Chuggers on Princes Street? Or should they just know there place at the bottom of the pile and go and rattle a tin somewhere?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 12 May 2006, 10:21

The problem is though that small independent businesses are suffering as a consequence and local traders aren't happy. In the days when charity shops only sold second-hand goods (as some of the smaller ones still do) they provided a socially useful method of recycling. My objection is that the larger charity chains are using their commercial advantages to squeeze out independent retailers, in just the way that supermarkets chains do, by stocking the same goods and under-cutting the opposition.

Charity has become big business and, unfortunately, in some cases has adopted some of the worst practices of modern day capitalism. I find that a huge turn off and I know that a lot of people feel the same way.

Frankly, I don't like charity. I think that cancer research and every other worthy cause, even donkey sanctuaries, should be funded through direct taxation. It's simple - if you want better schools, better hospitals, better public transport, better services you have to pay for them, each according to their means. Just take my money, at source, and then don't hassle me.

gilo · Post by **gilo** » 12 May 2006, 11:07

I agree with the should of it all but we are in the same old dilemma - what do we do until then?

I don't know about donkey sanctuarys but lets make no mistake, without some organisations the service simply wouldn't be there. I'm sure the voluntary organisations themselves would love to be centrally funded and leave you alone. Too much energy goes into scrapping around for cash.

Lets not compare chrity shops with supermarkets. At the supermarket I can by all food, electrical goods stationary stuff, financial stuff, pharmacy etc etc etc. anything i want at low cost, this is the problem to small traders nationwide.

gilo · Post by **gilo** » 12 May 2006, 15:58

Bob, I've just walked down the high street checking out the charity shops. My god their collecting for everything! Point taken.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 12 May 2006, 19:22

Bob Jefferson wrote: Frankly, I don't like charity.

Quote of the week

Green Onions · Post by **Green Onions** » 14 May 2006, 18:09

I should start by saying that I agree there should be a limit on the number of charity shops within an area and that they should have to provide a quality offering (not just a few tatty old bits and pieces hanging in the window).

However, that said, I think that the voluntary sector, which runs the charity shops, performs a good service for the public benefit and are absolutely vital and desirable. I disagree that everything should be 100% funded by Govt for the following reasons:

1. Some people will not use statutory services because they do not want what they see as official snooping into their business. They want to use the voluntary sector, which may be viewed as much less judgemental/threatening. For example, this can be clearly seen in worries in the areas of parenting, domestic violence, homelessness, debt counselling etc..

2. Many in the voluntary sector do not want to be 100% funded by Government since this could threaten their ability to fund unpopular causes and/or to lobby and take a contrary position to Govt. Often a key purpose for voluntary organisations is to influence policy and challenge the Government of the day. One such area might be around refugees and asylum seekers.

3. I see the use of volunteers as a good thing. It allows people to contribute to their community and also enables some individuals who may be marginalised or isolated to become more involved and, in some cases, to gain skills that help them move closer to the employment market.

Given the above, charity shops are an important means of raising funds for the voluntary sector to maintain their independence.

sample808 · Post by **sample808** » 17 May 2006, 13:11

wether you agree with charity or not, the fact remains that charity shops are taking over porty and i, for one, think it is a disgrace.

i take particular offence at the council owned shop on the high street, recently refurbished with council money to provide a much needed retail unit then handed over to "thrift" (who?) who evidently pay no rates on the site.

these shops have a place in a busy thriving high street but there should be a limit, they are doing more harm than a superstore.

Green Onions · Post by **Green Onions** » 17 May 2006, 19:32

Well given that we currently have the number that we already do, is there anything that we could do to make the situation more positive? On a related thread elsewhere people talked very positively about some of the specialist shops in Stockbridge etc.. that sell books and/or records. And they seem prepared to make a trip there to visit those shops.

Could Portobello Community Council talk to the people from the bigger charities, such as Cancer Research or Barnardo's about the potential to bring one of their specialist shops here (e.g. Barnardo's have a shop that specialises in wedding dresses in Gorgie I think and Cancer Research have got a couple of entertainment shops selling books, records, etc.. though not in Edinburgh)? If we were able to get a couple of good quality specialist shops like this then they could serve to draw people from a wider area to the High Street to shop, which would be of benefit to other local traders.

These type of specialist shops are unlikely to be in competition with local traders - not sure when I last heard of a local book or record shop starting up. They've all been squeezed out by the Borders and HMVs of the world.

By the way, completely disagree that charity shops are more destructive than supermarkets. But won't go into that here.

Cleopas · Post by **Cleopas** » 20 May 2006, 00:10

I think Charity shops like the ones that sell ONLY books would be welcome in ANY community. But I agree that there is a surfeit of general charity shops in Porty, Stockbridge, Leith, Corstorphine and the South Side already. As has been said, they only open because they are got on the cheap.

I have no argument with charity in general, but dislike the fact that there is a need for such shops to help the Third World countries that have to survive such terrible conditions as extreme poverty, natural disasters, tribal wars and murderous regimes.

sample808 · Post by **sample808** » 17 Jun 2006, 17:05

excellent idea, would have no objection to a few specialist charity shops which do not encroach on existing traders, however i still think that the number of charity outlets should be capped.

ok i admit that perhaps the superstore would be a worse option than charity shops, but only slightly...

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 07 Jul 2006, 19:02

This is still very much a live issue and our local politicians are doing their bit:

Dear All

The issue of the growing number of charity shops on Portobello High Street has given rise to a great deal of concern in recent months.

Susan Deacon MSP has been in touch with the Communities Minister, Malcolm Chisolm MSP, about this and I have also been in touch with the local office of Gavin Strang MP re. the UK charitable law which grants charity shops an 80% rates relief.

This is a complex matter and I don't in any way want to detract from the good work undertaken by the charities involved. I do, however, wish to maintain a reasonable variety of commercial retail units in the High Street and there is the feeling that, the more "professional" charity shops become, the more they undermine existing "real" shops - firstly, by selling similar goods and, secondly, by being better able to pay rent on premises due to their rates relief and the fact that many of their staff are volunteers.

From the e-mail below, you can see that I had hoped that it might be possible, via the planning system, to set a % limit on the number of charity shops in the High Street, but this appears now to be an impossibility.

I'm sure that this issue won't go away, however - and nor is it one confined to just Portobello.

I thought, therefore, that I should send you the e-mail below - which I sent off to Susan Deacon's office today - to let you know of this debate and the various ways in which people are trying sensitively to tackle the issues raised.

Lawrence

e-mail sent by Lawrence Marshall to the office of Susan Deacon MSP on 7th July 2006:

... just to let you know that I had the idea just after the last community council meeting that it might be possible to restrict the number of charity shops on the High Street in the way that we restrict the number of non-retail outlets along the primary and secondary shopping frontages there at the moment.

As you know, on the primary frontage no more than 20% non-retail is allowed and the figure is 40% for the secondary frontage area.

Could we say that, e.g., no more than 10% of units on the primary frontage be charity shops, 20% on the secondary frontage? And could we input this policy into the forthcoming Edinburgh City Local Plan?

I put these points yesterday to Alan Henderson, Head of Planning, and unfortunately his view was that this would be impossible since Class 1 use covers from Harvey Nichols to Poundstretcher and the planning system doesn't discriminate between the two (the control exercised at Multrees Walk on who could set up shop there was by dint of ownership, not through the planning system). We couldn't therefore say that only a certain % of charity shops would be allowed. And he didn't think you could create a special class use just for charity shops and implement controls that way.

I did point out to him that I now believed that charity shops were filling up premises that could have become "normal" retail units because they were able to pay higher rents due to the fact that they pay vastly reduced rates. They were also selling goods that were being offered by "real" shops and hence undermining the latter's ability to survive. Hence they were impacting on the variety of units the High Street offered folk. He understood these points and the planning relevance of it but still felt that my suggestion was not practicable.

I hope that Susan's letter to Malcolm Chisolm might reveal some other way of tackling an issue which is giving rise to anger in the local community.

Meantime, the other route of looking at the rates relief offered charity shops might be pursued. This could be quite controversial, though, as most of these charities are well known, work for good causes and folk don't more of the money raised to be diverted to rates - although their rate rebate is currently picked up by the U.K. Treasury and thus reduces government coffers.

This isn't an easy matter to resolve but, as charity shops become ever more "professional" and numerous, it is an issue which is unlikely to go away.

Lawrence

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 07 Jul 2006, 19:22

Maureen Child's take on the issue from her most recent newsletter:

Charity Shops - Cause for Concern?

People are worried about the number of charity shops on Portobello High Street and unfair competition with small traders. When they claim rates relief, the Council ask the charity shop to confirm that they deal mainly in donated goods. The Council's finance officer would normally accept their confirmation at face value and the 80% grant relief they are entitled to through national legislation. The majority of charity shops are national and HQ keeps them right on what to do to keep their rates relief. The Council won't grant charity shops 100% relief, even if they apply for it , as they do. Councillors and officers have agreed to refuse them the extra 20%. However, Council get occasional complaints about some shops and these are investigated. It's not straightforward. For example, a shop may sell new goods donated to charity as 'end-of-line' stock. So, these are classed as donated goods. There's no denying this is a knotty problem, with hard-pressed retailers on one side and the emotional pull of the charity shops on the other. There is also the environmental argument that charity shops are recycle unwanted consumer goods, diverting tonnes of unwanted consumer stuff from landfill sites in our throw-away society.

Cleopas · Post by **Cleopas** » 10 Jul 2006, 11:14

Have you seen Nicolson Street and it's line of Charity shops all next door to each other?? Total madness. I think there has to be a cap on how many of these shops can open up in any given community. Don't get me wrong ... I like charity shops and I use them to buy things as well as donate ... but come on ... enough is enough!

Cleopas · Post by **Cleopas** » 18 Aug 2006, 08:33

Did anyone catch the story about the Charity Bookshop in Stockbridge that found the handwritten diary of the nephew of Sir James Young Simpson (Simpson's Maternity; discoverer of chloroform) amongst its donations?? The book (over 200 yrs old) is now with the Royal College of Surgeons. Wonder if they paid ... and how much ... for it!

This is one good reason for getting charity shops to start specialising ... the discovery of rare items that should be kept for the nation ... and not disappear into the greedy hands of reclusive private collectors!

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 18 Aug 2006, 09:15

Cleopas wrote:Did anyone catch the story about the Charity Bookshop in Stockbridge that found the handwritten diary of the nephew of Sir James Young Simpson (Simpson's Maternity; discoverer of chloroform) amongst its donations?? The book (over 200 yrs old) is now with the Royal College of Surgeons. Wonder if they paid ... and how much ... for it!

This is one good reason for getting charity shops to start specialising ... the discovery of rare items that should be kept for the nation ... and not disappear into the greedy hands of reclusive private collectors!

Â£200 according to the paper yesterday, if I remember correctly!

Cleopas · Post by **Cleopas** » 18 Aug 2006, 09:21

Cheap at the price ... I woulda extorted a coupla thou for that wee item! They want it bad enough ... they'll pay!!! Good grief ... I'm turning into an American!!!

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 27 Oct 2006, 13:04

From today's EN Feeling less than charitable. .

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Charity Shops in Portobello

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