10/01741/FUL - Bellfield Lane planning application

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Bob Jefferson
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10/01741/FUL - Bellfield Lane planning application

Post by Bob Jefferson » 01 Jul 2010, 16:52

admin: this thread has been split from Surely Not?- Stories from Portobello Community Council thread
Porty wrote:Are you sure the mediators are not there to resolve the split on the plannning application for the house in Bellfield Lane? I could understand if they are. At least that application was discussed and sources say that PCC were split more or less evenly on support or object.

Is everyone familiar with the Bellfield Lane application?
I'm guessing you are referring to this application:

10/01741/FUL

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Post by seanie » 01 Jul 2010, 18:28

Yes.

It's a house for a local couple who have a child with severe cerebral palsy and epilepsy. Their current house isn't suitable for them as a family and they're not likely to find one in Portobello that is; hence the requirment for a new build.

The site is a commercial/light industrial site at the end of Bellfield Lane currently owned by Harris motors, so in many respects a house is more in keeping with the residential nature of the surroundings and should also reduce traffic down the lane.

I think it really is a rather good design and should be supported. However it's very rare for anyone to submit favourable comments on a Planning Application, you only ever get the negative.

But if anyone's interested they could look at the Design Statement.

And if they think it's a design that should be approved thay could always submit a comment. It's quite easy. Just hit the Submit Comments button here.

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Post by Maria » 01 Jul 2010, 20:17

seanie wrote: I think it really is a rather good design and should be supported. However it's very rare for anyone to submit favourable comments on a Planning Application, you only ever get the negative.

But if anyone's interested they could look at the Design Statement.

And if they think it's a design that should be approved thay could always submit a comment. It's quite easy. Just hit the Submit Comments button here.
I also think the design is excellent Seanie and the use of high quality building materials would result in a very attractive house. The fact that they have also allowed for a turning space along with two parking spaces on this brownfield site is also a plus point. I have submitted my comment in favour.
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Post by Bob Jefferson » 01 Jul 2010, 20:55

And me. This is not an occasion to stand on principle. There may well be existing cases of over-development in the area but it's a brownfield site and a huge amount of thought has obviously gone into the design.

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Post by Lambie » 01 Jul 2010, 21:16

This looks great. Contemporary and considerate. I like it a lot.

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Post by seanie » 01 Jul 2010, 21:17

Be sure to hit the button and comment away.

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Hitting the button.

Post by Lambie » 01 Jul 2010, 21:22

Cheers seanie, I'd missed that. Done it now though.

Just to reiterate then I went to...

http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/ ... XXBEW7N000

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Post by SoupDragon » 01 Jul 2010, 22:12

Why were other proposals to build in the lane knocked back?
Surely family housing is better than a rarely used out house or garage.

(I mean car paking garages rather than Mr Harris who services and MOTs my elderly Volvo )

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Post by seanie » 01 Jul 2010, 22:58

Some have been approved and some knocked back, but most of them have been recommended for approval by Planning Officers either way.

One of the most recent rejection's just gone to appeal, which is not surprising given the Committee's reasons for refusal, against officer recommendation, were woefully thin.

In pure Planning terms the proposal meets all the relevant policies.

But Planning Committees are easily swayed by the sound and fury of a few objections. Especially if nobody says anything in favour.

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Post by allaboardtheskylark » 01 Jul 2010, 23:12

Objections in the past have been for developing back gardens and lanes. Traffic is always raised as an issue.

On the right of the lane as you go down there has been attempts to develop the back gardens. This one is on the left side and is a brownfield site made available by the garage downsizing. It also seems to introduce parking space and a turning area which does not currently exist.

So less cars perhaps??? An improvement in access perhaps???

It gets rid of an ugly old brick shed and introduces a superb design with specific aims in mind.

An improvement and an enhancement in the area perhaps???

I would have thought to object fairly other options should be explored. Those who are so quick to object to this use for the land seem not to wish to explore other options and offer solutions.

Is this a familiar story in Portobello.

I will hit the button and back this application and the fuddy duddy brigade will just have to lump it.

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Post by Puerto bella » 01 Jul 2010, 23:21

Hopefully it will be a delegated item and won't need to go to committee.

I wish them all the best with it. A good, well thought out design statement - very impressive.

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Post by Porty » 01 Jul 2010, 23:48

I also think the design is very good and so much better than the current use of space. The proposed building is in keeping with its neighbours and with a contemporary twist. I will be supporting it.

Seanie, how does the development look when compared to prevailing planning policy?

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Post by seanie » 02 Jul 2010, 00:05

It's supported by the residential windfall developent policies in the Structure & Local Plans.

By reducing traffic, due to the change from garage premises, it improves local amenity.

It follows the form, scale and massing of neighbouring properties, and meets all requirements in terms of privacy, overshadowing, daylighting and space.

The sustainabilty credentials would appear to be very good, with high levels of insulation and an inherently efficient heating system.

The Conservation Area appraisal essentially calls for high quality, sympathetic to the surroundings. So given the design, scale, massing and materials it should be seen as an enhancement over a garage/shed/parking lot.

I expect the Planners will recommend approval. What the Committee will do is anyone's guess.

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Post by Porty » 02 Jul 2010, 10:37

seanie wrote:
I expect the Planners will recommend approval. What the Committee will do is anyone's guess.
Might seem like a simplistic question; for the uninitated, can you explain the role of the Planners in the process and that of the commitee and what their skill sets are?

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Post by Pal of Porty » 02 Jul 2010, 11:00

Just submitted my support for this application. I think this is absolutely brilliant and I love the design statement. I fail to see how this is not an enhancement to this area as it improves the site and surroundings by several aspects.

It is easy to object to something and just trot out the usual subjective policy breeches but further down the line the objections have to be justified and valid. If they are not then the appeal will be won by the the person doing the development, as happened recently with a small plot in Joppa. 8)
Justice delayed is justice denied.

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Post by Porty » 02 Jul 2010, 11:04

For those that are unaware; the site was/is a former Used Car lot, it usually had about 6 or 7 cars for sale. (the owner also had much larger premises). There was a ricketty but sizeable workshop of no architectural merit.

Leaving all else aside; does a well designed house not lend itself more to a residential conservation area?

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Post by seanie » 02 Jul 2010, 16:30

Porty wrote:Might seem like a simplistic question; for the uninitated, can you explain the role of the Planners in the process and that of the commitee and what their skill sets are?
There’s an aspect of the planning system that needs to be appreciated, and it may be worth explaining some of the history.

It’s become more complex but the planning system we have today was essentially created in 1947. Prior to that there really wasn’t much of system to control development. There were some national and local planning acts, bye-laws etc but it was a bit haphazard and had evolved from a position where, if you owned a bit of land, you could build whatever you wanted. Although there were restrictions, the default position was that you didn’t need permission for development.

The 1947 Planning Act ended that. It took away that underlying right to build what you wanted on your own land without permission. Development rights were effectively nationalised; taken over by the state. Since then the default position has been that you need permission for development. There are of course ‘permitted development rights’, but those ‘rights’ are bestowed by the authorities.

However, in exchange for taking away the right to develop without permission, the system was set up so that there is a presumption in favour of development. If you comply with the planning policies then you are entitled to permission. And you’re entitled to it regardless of how many people don’t like what you’re proposing.

That’s a fundamental principle underlying the planning system that causes all sorts of grief.

Because planning policies are so complex you need a technical assessment of whether something complies and that requires specialist knowledge; planning officers. They might look at a proposal in detail, against the relevant policies and conclude that it meets them. Polices are not only complex but they’re also open to interpretation, so sometimes that decision might be marginal, sometimes it might be ’wrong’. But if they think it complies they must recommend approval to the Councillors on the Planning Committee.

But those Councillors may be getting a barrage of letters and e-mails from irate residents who very much don’t want what’s being proposed. Those irate residents may or may not reflect the views of the community at large, but it’s very difficult for the Councillors to know since almost nobody ever writes in favour of something. They only ever hear the negative.

Councillors being politicians, their natural instinct is to trim their sails to the prevailing wind and they may want to go against the officer’s recommendation but they can only do so on legitimate planning grounds; they need an actual policy. If they refused an application without a policy to pin it on they’d be in trouble. But Councillors have to deal with all sorts of things, and just because they’re on a Planning Committee doesn’t mean they have any great knowledge of planning policies. Some of them might, particularly over time, but by and large they don’t.

So when the Committee is ‘minded to refuse’ against officer recommendation, officers then have to go away and find some planning policy to justify that position. Sometimes that can be a reasonable alternative interpretation of policy, sometimes it’s clasping at straws. I’ve seen some laughable attempts to justify a clearly unjustifiable refusal.

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Post by Pal of Porty » 03 Jul 2010, 10:23

seanie wrote:.......I’ve seen some laughable attempts to justify a clearly unjustifiable refusal.
Which often ends up on the winning end of an appeal because there is no justifiable or sustainable objection. 8)
Justice delayed is justice denied.

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Post by Porty » 03 Jul 2010, 13:19

seanie wrote: However, in exchange for taking away the right to develop without permission, the system was set up so that there is a presumption in favour of development. If you comply with the planning policies then you are entitled to permission. And you’re entitled to it regardless of how many people don’t like what you’re proposing.

That’s a fundamental principle underlying the planning system that causes all sorts of grief.
It causes more than grief. Take Monday nights' Community Council meeting. The meeting went on for 3 hours and there was no time set aside to discuss;

1) the plight of Towerbank and how the PCC may try and exert influence on the council.
2) how the £500,000 open space improvement fund could be spent in the community.

And various other issues of more significance than this small, spiffing, planning compliant, residential development. Imagine it; 25 or so adults including 3 politicians and a local minister discussing (45 mins?) whether or not to object to the application?

They actually had a vote, hands in the air. Well in actual fact they had 2 votes, cos the first one came out even. The vote went against the application by one or two votes out of 14 or so.

It will be very interesting to see the letter of objectio, we will see if it truly represents the range of views in the room. Seanie, willl you be submitting a letter to the secretary and if so, will you share it with us?

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Post by Maria » 03 Jul 2010, 15:24

Porty wrote: Imagine it; 25 or so adults including 3 politicians and a local minister
Do you mean Kenny MacAskill? I didn't vote for him, but have to admire his energy. He turns up at lots of wee local functions and is a regular at our CC meetings, attending last Mon night. Imagine putting in a day at Holyrood discussing national affairs in cabinet and finishing it off with a 3hr meeting of the PCC. He's certainly dedicated.
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Post by Bob Jefferson » 03 Jul 2010, 15:50

He must have a better attendance record than Mike Bridgman. Kenny impresses me as well, if not his party.

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Post by seanie » 03 Jul 2010, 20:35

Mike Bridgeman's attendance is pretty regular now. I know he didn't turn up much to begin wtih but I think that may've been due to personal circumstances rather than a lack of interest.

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Post by Porty » 03 Jul 2010, 23:08

I meant Stuart Maxwell. I agree , KM's work rate is amazing and MB has definitely grown on me.. Neither has persuaded me to move closer to the SNP . I

Marya, if you choose to write to the sec to support the Bellfield Lane app, will you share it with us?

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Post by Porty » 04 Jul 2010, 10:43

Now I am confusing things; Stuart Maxwell was the former communities minister!! Anyway, I know who I mean.

BTT- I hope the family succeed withe their application. It will enhance thiat wee bit of porty.

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Post by Maria » 04 Jul 2010, 11:06

Porty wrote: Marya, if you choose to write to the sec to support the Bellfield Lane app, will you share it with us?
I spoke in favour of the application prior to the CC vote. Unfortunately, the outcome of the vote rejected calls to support the application and instead resolved to object. Although this was by the narrowest of margins, I accept that it was a democratic vote and I won't be writing to the Secretary. Instead, I've submitted my individual vote of support through the planning portal, which I feel is a more productive action.
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Post by Puerto bella » 04 Jul 2010, 12:03

Can you tell us what the reasons were for objecting?

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Post by seanie » 04 Jul 2010, 12:03

I also accept there was a democratic vote (two in fact) and that the Community Council has legitimately decided to object to the proposal. But any letter of objections still need to fairly reflect all views expressed.

The duty of the Community Council is to represent the broad range of opinions within the community. Whilst there are practical difficulties in that, the principle is quite clear. But if PCC responses don’t even represent the broad range of opinions within the Community Council, what claim could the PCC possibly have to fulfil that wider function?

A vote was taken to object to the Planning Application, and the reasons for that objection should obviously be given in any submission. But no vote can override the Community Council’s fundamental duty to represent the broad range of views. It certainly cannot justify the exclusion of supportive views.

If the Community Council is to take a definite position on this or any other issue, then all views expressed within the PCC, both for and against, should be fairly set out within any representation. And the outcome of any vote, including the numbers for and against, should also be included.

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Post by Bob Jefferson » 04 Jul 2010, 12:29

I assume that the letter of objection will be circulated to all CC members prior to it being sent, allowing members to object to the objection, or at least the manner in which it is presented.

Such letters sent on behalf of the community should be in the public domain, so would one of the members please post it, along with any subsequent drafts, on this thread, so that as members of the community we have the opportunity to object to what is being written on our behalf.

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Post by Franck » 05 Jul 2010, 10:03

Thats a terrific looking house that can only improve the lane and the lifestyle of the family.I've just done pretty much the same thing (mine was an extension allowing my disabled sister-in-law to live with us instead of going into full time care) and although ours was not as fancy due to funding I love the idea of brownfield sites being used as positively as this.

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Post by Porty » 05 Jul 2010, 10:52

seanie wrote:I also accept there was a democratic vote (two in fact) and that the Community Council has legitimately decided to object to the proposal. But any letter of objections still need to fairly reflect all views expressed..
There was a democratic vote and it has to be respected.However, the vote was on the wrong motiion. There ought to be no presumption of objection. The vote should have been "as a Community Council do we wish to comment on this application?" And once it as agreed to comment the views of those that wish to make comment should be compiled and submitted. It is perfectly ok to say more were against than for. In this case it would also be truthful to say something along the lines of "we should note that Portobello Community Council has made no attempt to consult the wider community on thiis matter. "

Seanie, leaving aside the wider community, out of interest:

Was theire a site visit by PCC?
Did PCC engage with either the applicants or their agents ? For example, did they inform the agents that there development would be discussed and invite them along, like they do with BL etc?
Are PCC accepting anonymous objections from "neighbours"?

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Post by allaboardtheskylark » 11 Jul 2010, 11:45

Well there were eight votes against the Bellfield lane developement.

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Post by allaboardtheskylark » 12 Jul 2010, 09:55

Once again I post on the wrong page Porty. Should have been on the surely not? page.

Must go to the huddies internet training. Its not easy to get the hang of this when you start using a computer when in your 70's. How does one follow the threads when one has lost the plot.

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Post by Bob Jefferson » 10 Aug 2010, 22:13

From the minutes of the June CC meeting:
The application by a Portobello couple to build a three-bedroom house at 9/2 Bellfield Lane was discussed at length. The Community Council had previously objected to applications to build houses at 17 and 19 in the Lane on the grounds of over-development, traffic problems, inappropriate materials, out of sympathy with the conservation area, and for effectively creating a two-sided street. The City Council’s planning department had accepted most of these arguments, but they did not all apply to the current case. Margaret Munro expressed concern about emergency access. Stephen Hawkins and Archie Burns emphasised the need to be consistent, and while sympathising with the reason for this application they thought it would be incompatible with the conservation area. William Wilson supported the proposal, mentioning that because of the shortage of local housing, only two of the people he had known at primary school still lived locally. Maria Devoy pointed out that this was not a back-garden development and that traffic could access the site. It was agreed to hold a vote; 8 people objected to the proposal, 7 supported it, 4 abstained. John agreed to draft a letter citing worries over emergency access, over development, incompatibility of materials in a conservation area, and general safety issues, and circulate it for comment.

* Action: John Stewart to write to the City Council’s Planning Department summarising concerns about the proposed development.

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Post by Bob Jefferson » 10 Aug 2010, 22:16

And in case anyone has forgotten:
Bob Jefferson wrote:I assume that the letter of objection will be circulated to all CC members prior to it being sent, allowing members to object to the objection, or at least the manner in which it is presented.

Such letters sent on behalf of the community should be in the public domain, so would one of the members please post it, along with any subsequent drafts, on this thread, so that as members of the community we have the opportunity to object to what is being written on our behalf.

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Post by seanie » 10 Aug 2010, 22:48

Dear Sir,

Planning Application; 10/01741/FUL, 9/2, Bellfield Lane, Portobello.

Portobello Community Council has considered the above application, and the following sets out the various views expressed along with our formal objection as a statutory consultee.

Objecting Comments

The Community Council has previously objected to several applications for new houses in this lane and should be consistent in its response to Planning Applications in this area.

Whilst a precedent has been set for some new houses to be built in this lane, the point has now come at which such a high degree of new development threatens to spoil the character of this part of the conservation area and the whole character of this lane which complements the unspoiled row of mid Victorian cottages, will have been radically altered.

Although this application relates to a brown field site, unlike the two recently refused applications for back-garden developments along the lane, there is still a very real danger of overdevelopment in this part of the conservation area, particularly as the two recently refused applicants have both lodged appeals against the decisions.

The Portobello Conservation Area Character Appraisal states that over-development has occurred in back gardens as well as some over-building in back lanes and that careful attention needs to be paid to such developments in the future if the character of the conservation area is to be both preserved and protected.

The creation of a new street presents several serious traffic and safety issues. The lane is very narrow, with a tight right angled bend at the top. There are no pavements down either side. Figure 6 in the design statement seems to indicate how a fire engine could access the site but this is hard to believe as refuse lorries cannot negotiate the bend and at present rubbish bins have to be gathered together at the entrance to the lane on uplift days.

There is a car repair business at the foot of the lane and a children’s nursery right at the bend in the lane. The nursery has 110 places with permission for 75 children to be present at a time. Although there is access to the nursery by means of a narrow vennel from the High Street, double and triple buggies use the rear access along the lane as do cars dropping children off at the nursery. If permission was to be granted for yet another house in this lane then this complex mix of traffic and safety problems would only be increased. The corner of the new house at the top of the lane, right at the bend, has already been damaged by vehicles struggling to negotiate the tight corner.

The idea of a hammerhead turning space is both practical and sensible but there is no guarantee that this space would always be available for vehicles to reverse into and then drive back up the lane.

Caithness stone and cedar shingles may be traditional Scottish building materials, but they are not the traditional building materials of the Portobello Conservation Area. As far as is known, Caithness stone has not been used in any other house in the Portobello area.

While the front of the proposed house would present a pitched slate roof to the lane, the rear of the house, with its angular copper clad roof, would be out of character with the design and materials of the surrounding original houses.

Supporting Comments

This proposal is to be welcomed as it allows a family with particular needs to build an accessible home.

Redeveloping commercial premises with a family home would probably reduce traffic in the lane and the introduction of a hammerhead turning would improve what vehicular movement there is.

Windfall housing development on brownfield sites is supported by the Development Plan, and a precedent for residential development on the lane has been set by previously consented schemes.

A family home would be more in keeping with the residential nature of the Conservation Area than the current use of the site.

The scale, form and massing of the proposal are sympathetic to the surroundings and the design meets the requirements of overshadowing, sunlight and privacy.

The proposal is of architectural merit in terms of design, sustainability and materials. A high quality modern design would add to the rich mix of architectural styles that exists within the Conservation Area.

Conclusion

After discussing the proposal a vote was taken, with eight Community Councillors objecting to the application, seven being in favour, while others abstained.

Therefore Portobello Community Council objects to the proposal on the grounds that it represents overdevelopment in this part of the conservation area, it would be contrary to the character of the conservation area, contrary to the Portobello Conservation Area Character Appraisal, the design and the materials are not in keeping with the conservation area, and there are significant traffic and safety issues involved.

Yours sincerely,

John M. Stewart,
Chair, Portobello Community Council.

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