Kings Road teatime fights......

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 21 May 2005, 13:06

Dadaist wrote: i came in from my driving lesson

Were you giving or receiving

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 21 May 2005, 13:10

foxy wrote:
Dadaist wrote: i came in from my driving lesson
Were you giving or receiving

Oh receiving, most definitely. I am not Maureen from "Driving School", but I am not Schumacher either, and that's for sure.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 21 May 2005, 13:12

I make that almost a year of lessons now Dadaist!

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 21 May 2005, 13:26

A year? Pah. I started learning to drive when neo-Dadaist was a mere twinkle in Beach Babe's eye. There's nothing you can sling at me that the people in my office haven't already. When I told them about the no-claims bonus on my car (which still has L-plates) they were in tears. Lovely people.

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 21 May 2005, 13:46

Dadaist wrote:Gracious. So there is near consensus here that instead of due legal process, human rights should be suspended for a 15 year-old, who should be subjected to either being shot, castrated, or systematically abused in prison.

And this is because, wait for it, *he/she* is an "animal"?

I din't say that the 15 year old's human rights should be suspended, what I did say in a roundabout way - is, let the penalty fit the crime,

Think you will find that the 15/16 & 17 years olds who have been apprehended for this murder will have a plethora of shrinks/social workers, in fact a whole army of helpers/do gooders working on their
behalf - meanwhile the family of the murder victim will have to get on with the heartbreaking task of buryng their son/husband/father, with less assistance.

I am familiar with the past and present gangland situation in Glasgow, my family belonging to the south side of the city (not involved in any gangland warfare)
ex girfriend of my Brother, involved in the Thompson/Ferris atrocities - in a legal capacity - pretty sickening stuff

I am sure that the in-depth media coverage does not help the situation.

A debate held some time ago between two close friends, one of whom worked in Kerlaw ( a home for kid's who murder along with other horrendous acts of violence) the 2nd friend, a community worker, the debate was on the 2 boys who murdered the little Bulger boy. The Kerlaw worker believed that some kids were inherently born evil, the community worker believed that circumstances surrounding their upbringing was a significant contributary cause?

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 21 May 2005, 13:51

Dadaist wrote:A year? Pah. I started learning to drive when neo-Dadaist was a mere twinkle in Beach Babe's eye. There's nothing you can sling at me that the people in my office haven't already. When I told them about the no-claims bonus on my car (which still has L-plates) they were in tears. Lovely people.

You've got my sympathy Dadaist. I only learned to drive after turning thirty and found it the most nerve-wracking experience (unlike Homer who at a similarly 'mature' age took a block of 10 lessons and passed his test easily

).

Sitting my first test (and failing) must rank as my most stressful experience. The second most stressful experience was re-taking my test a month later - with the same grim examiner that had failed me first time round. I rolled back slightly as I attempted to set off and thought (like my instructor who was watching me) that I had already failed again. I relaxed and lo and behold was told I was fit to be on the roads. Was I heck!

Still, I reckon I'm a passable driver now, a *few* years down the line

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 21 May 2005, 13:54

Thanks Marya. I did the theory the other week (passed) - the hazard clips are very nerve wracking!

Gemini - you said you agreed with "string em up" wangi so I lumped you in with the vigilantes.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 21 May 2005, 14:02

Gemini wrote:A debate held some time ago between two close friends, one of whom worked in Kerlaw ( a home for kid's who murder along with other horrendous acts of violence) the 2nd friend, a community worker, the debate was on the 2 boys who murdered the little Bulger boy. The Kerlaw worker believed that some kids were inherently born evil, the community worker believed that circumstances surrounding their upbringing was a significant contributary cause?

I've visited similar institutions and chatted with staff who held similar views to your friend Gemini. They also said that the 'burn out' rate for staff was about 2 years. An ex-policeman I know, who was involved in the Bulger case, also holds similar views. I'm not sure if their opinions should carry more weight because of their experiences or whether we should regard their views as more polarised as a result of always dealing with one particular facet of society

The nature/nurture debate is certainly one that is set to run for a good while yet.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 21 May 2005, 14:07

Gemini, I don't believe that kids are 'born evil'. I think that it's nurture (or lack of it) rather than nature that makes some kids turn out bad. I think you could take most of these kids at age 5, put them in a 'decent' family and they would turn out OK. By the age of 10 the damage is already done. In most cases, it's probably the parents who deserve to be locked up.

Neither do I think that this has anything to do with social deprivation. It's just the difference between right and wrong.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 21 May 2005, 14:26

Bob Jefferson wrote:Gemini, I don't believe that kids are 'born evil'. I think that it's nurture (or lack of it) rather than nature that makes some kids turn out bad. I think you could take most of these kids at age 5, put them in a 'decent' family and they would turn out OK. By the age of 10 the damage is already done. In most cases, it's probably the parents who deserve to be locked up.

Neither do I think that this has anything to do with social deprivation. It's just the difference between right and wrong.

Totally agree with you Bob. I believe it's nurture every time. Probably like others on the forum, I come from a very "modest" background, which in today's terms may be classed as "socially deprived". My parents and grandparents were good law-abiding folk and we were brought up knowing right from wrong and that we should respect others. It seems to be that nowadays many who are deprived kick out at the society that "owes" them and get a pat on the back for doing so.

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 21 May 2005, 18:29

Both Friends had excellent arguments from their own personal experiences.

I go along with much of what has been said, by Bob/Marya/Foxy, although still feel the same way as Epykat and Wangi,

I am!

What I don't know (and hope,never to know) is, what my reaction would be if anything like this happened to my son, does anyone truthfully know how they would react?

It seems the laws in place are not working very well.

Perhaps a higher Police profile on the streets? CCTV's (as mentioned by Bob) and appears to work well in many cases.
Boot Camp? Birching? Perhaps making the parents pay-up for any damage caused deliberately by their child/ren? But how do you punish kids, cause that is what they are at 15/16 and 17, for murder?

I was once charged for driving a scooter with no licence/helmet and with a pillion passenger on the back. I was sick with worry at the thought of having to tell my parents that the Police would be paying us a visit.
They went ballistic! I received a Ã‚Â£20 fine - but the lecture and the embarrasment of it all has stayed with me.

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 22 May 2005, 12:35

I wouldn't advocate battering murderers to death with a plank of wood.....however, these kids know, as well as we do, that they'll get a couple of years in a young offenders institution learning how to hone their skills in murder, drug taking and general law breaking, then they'll get out, get loads of help from social services to become model citizens and get on with their lives - probably whilst on benefits that we are paying for. No deterent whatsoever to doing exactly what they want to do. And that's what's wrong with society.

<gets off soapbox, takes off Mary Whitehouse hat...........>

Brian McCrow · Post by **Brian McCrow** » 22 May 2005, 13:45

How prepared would you be to pay more for your Council Tax to get more Bobbies on the beat and CCTV cameras on the Prom and High Street?

I've seen zero tolerance work in places such as New York and it's worth every penny. Until we can demonstrate every day to the petty criminals and their parents that they will be caught and punished we will descend even further into a respectless, lawless society.

I for one want to return to more decency and respect for fellow citizens.

We need to improve discipline in schools with fines and even imprisonment for parents as they are often the root cause of the problems.

We need to reduce binge drinking as alcohol is a major factor in lawlessness. I'd like to see the Bobby on the beat visiting pubs on a regular basis to prevent issues rather than being called out when trouble breaks out. Pubs etc should be fined when fights break out and licences revoked more often.

We need to remove graffiti and tidy up our streets. By putting resources into this NOW we will end up with a better society in the longer term. So money spent now should lead to reduced spending in the future and a brighter future.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 22 May 2005, 14:54

Brian McCrow wrote:How prepared would you be to pay more for your Council Tax to get more Bobbies on the beat and CCTV cameras on the Prom and High Street?

Seem to remember when the Lib Dems suggested a penny increase on Income Tax they were soundly rejected by the electorate. Asking folk to pay more is never popular.

BTW Brian imprisoning parents is unlikely to improve school discipline IMHO.

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 22 May 2005, 17:09

foxy wrote:My parents and grandparents were good law-abiding folk and we were brought up knowing right from wrong and that we should respect others.

When I was wee, foxy, and misbehaving a look from one of my parents was usually enough to make me toe the line - changed days today though. I if I really misbehaved I got the wooden spoon - not that its done me any harm today, I hasten to add - more likely made me a more rounded person. My nieces though get away with a lot more than me and my sister did.

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 23 May 2005, 00:41

Yeh yeh yeh. If you want to make the world (or Portobello) a better place just take a stand and make your bit a little bit better. Then again it is easier to just keep telling us what is wrong with the world. Oh dear - it is always them out there.

Post by **wangi** » 23 May 2005, 11:27

Dadaist wrote:Gemini - you said you agreed with "string em up" wangi so I lumped you in with the vigilantes.

I don't see a problem with my reaction in my first post - "cut their balls off" - I'd imagine it's a fairly typical response to this disgusting act. And that's all I said.

I'm sick of how discipline and respect have been lost in this country. Giving the criminals a wee telling off, a hug and a band of plastic round their ankle sure isn't improving things!

Dada, might be worth putting things in perspective and remembering I've not battered anyone to death with a plank of wood!

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 23 May 2005, 12:33

Brian McCrow wrote:How prepared would you be to pay more for your Council Tax to get more Bobbies on the beat and CCTV cameras on the Prom and High Street?

Maybe if CT was fairer, people would not mind paying a little more!

I've seen zero tolerance work in places such as New York and it's worth every penny. Until we can demonstrate every day to the petty criminals and their parents that they will be caught and punished we will descend even further into a respectless, lawless society.

I have also witnessed zero tolerance in NYC, and witnessed a cop, using those huge sticks, smack a vehicle over the bonnet because the driver (old lady) had just edged too much across a stop line! Sometimes, zero tolerance can be taken too far, I truly believe that zero tolerance could be open to abuse,
The aforementoned coupled with the Patriot Act/Homeland Security, IMHO, fundamental freedoms are slowly being erroded in the Land of the Free.
Are we next?

I for one want to return to more decency and respect for fellow citizens.

Yes, we all do, but there has to be a balance.

We need to improve discipline in schools with fines

How will this be enforced?

and even imprisonment for parents as they are often the root cause of the problems.

As Gorgeous George would say : this is Proposterous!
Maybe some of the parents are already in prison

We need to reduce binge drinking as alcohol is a major factor in lawlessness.

Agreed.

I'd like to see the Bobby on the beat visiting pubs on a regular basis to prevent issues rather than being called out when trouble breaks out. Pubs etc should be fined when fights break out and licences revoked more often.

Agreed

We need to remove graffiti and tidy up our streets. By putting resources into this NOW we will end up with a better society in the longer term. So money spent now should lead to reduced spending in the future and a brighter future.

Some of the stuff I have seen have been work's of art. TBH though, I have not seen much Graffiti around lately.

While I agree, that the youth problem is worsening, and some of these problems may be caused by bad parenting, by the same token, there is really not much for young adults to do. There have been no developments in Porty, for a cafe/drop in centre or any other places that
they can chill. We should be thinking more about giving them their place in society, there are a few youth workers who post on POL,there are also techers and police. Perhaps they have some answers that we don't? Just a thought?

Although I , for one, would be grateful for their professional input on this subject.

Note for Porty - too busy to 'Quote' the entire posting to the high standards you demand -

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 23 May 2005, 12:35

Edit - this is in relation to "string em up" wangi's post, not Gemini's. Sorry Gemini, I will try to get into the habit of quoting !

----------------------------->

It's a fairly typical response if you are into the advocation of castrating, shooting or systematically abusing in prison, children. If you're not, it's a sickening response, or at least I think it is.

Your rhetoric somehow implicates me in hugging criminals. Incorrect.

You may or may not have battered one or more people to death with a plank of wood - that is between you and the courts. I'm sure we will all take your word for it that you haven't.

A matter of record now, though, is the insight we have had into your mind. You have fantasized an act of violence taking place and decided to share it with us - and in that context I don't see a problem with my reaction to your reaction.

Post by **wangi** » 23 May 2005, 12:44

Yawn. Whatever.

I am utterly disgusted by the murder of David Douglas by a group of thugs. That is the issue.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 23 May 2005, 13:09

wangi wrote:Yawn. Whatever.

I am utterly disgusted by the murder of David Douglas by a group of thugs. That is the issue.

You can backpedal all you like - PoP and Catz may do likewise or may (if you will excuse the pun) stick to their guns.

We are well aware that you are disgusted - however the choice of what "the issue" is is not exclusively yours.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 23 May 2005, 14:56

Sandra wrote:When I was wee, foxy, and misbehaving

I wished I'd seen that!

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 23 May 2005, 15:21

What an excellent debate, best one we've had for ages. Its difficult to argue with Dada or rather its easy to argue with Dada but he does have a compelling arguement, so does everyone else.

It is difficult to manage some teenagers. We had a breeze with the first two and the third is much more of a challenge. (currently grounded and has been for the whole of May) She seems to want to hang about in the street as she says its fun. We would much rather she brought her pals home and she does sometimes but its a constant source of worry. She does not hang with the kids that have been arrested for the murder but she does know them by their first names, which doesn't help us in the worrying department.

Wangi, you are spot on with the your lack of sympathy, respect or care for the perpetrators. Some people are genuinely evil, whether bu nature or nurture. I spoke about our recent fraca and i was in two minds whether to press charges, as the thug offered to come an apologise with his parents, which I thought was good enough. Then I discovered that he threatened to put a bottle over my sons face and he dishes out similar threats every weekend. Apparently since the police visited he is now grounded and is told not to hang about in Porty. I like to think its a small victory.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 23 May 2005, 16:39

Porty, your experience with teen number three is a familiar one. It is too easy for us to jump to conclusions about poor parenting ; of course it can be blamed sometimes, but many troublesome teens come from caring, and what Bob would term 'respectable' homes.

As for whether some kids are born 'evil'? Well, studies of identical twins who have been raised separately, have shown that nature often dominates over nurture. Whether we call some deviant behaviours 'evil' is up to the individual. I would certainly agree that some people are born amoral.

BTW Well done on the decision you made to prosecute. Sounds as if you made the correct choice.

teddygirl · Post by **teddygirl** » 23 May 2005, 17:27

I too can sympathise with other parents bringing up teenagers. It is not easy and like Porty have had very different experiences with my two. At times it was hard to believe that they came from the same home, having completely different values and outlook on life despite being brought up the same. Peer pressure definitely played a huge part on no. 2 child and she also knows some of the troublesome teenagers in the area although doesn't hang out with them. We have turned the corner with her now but for a couple of years life was very stressful in this household.
I know of plenty other kids from "respectable" families who have gone off the rails so please don't always blame the parents.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 23 May 2005, 18:01

I agree that it is a combination of nature and nurture that makes us what we are and that some people may be born with a greater predisposition to crime. A host of physiological factors have been blamed for deviant behaviour, including imbalances and deficiencies in hormones, vitamins, testosterone, adrenalin and nutrition. Alternatively you can take your pick from as many psychological and sociological theories.

However, I think that to claim that some children are born 'evil' or 'amoral' seems to be taking us back to the days when phrenology purported to identify 'criminal types', based on physical characteristics. Is a sense of morality innate? I don't think so. I think our duty as parents is to teach our children what is morally, socially and legally acceptable and to reinforce this by example and appropriate levels of reward and discipline. Some kids may be more 'difficult' than others but they remain our responsibility.

I don't have teenaged kids (yet) and I don't underestimate the difficulties involved. I can tell you that if genetics is involved at all then I'm probably in for a tough time, but IMHO far too many parents just abdicate responsibility and look to blame everyone and everything other than their own poor parenting skills.

But we are not talking here about natural teenage rebellion or kids getting into the odd scrape. I'm sure that teddygirl and Porty dealt with/are dealing with the situation in exactly the correct manner. I want to know what's going on in the heads of the parents of the kids under the age of 16 (and as young as 11 and 12) who are roaming the streets after dark, getting drunk, getting into fights, vandalising cars etc. These parents are failing in their duty and I don't accept that all these kids were born bad or amoral. They were just unlucky enough to be born to parents who didn't care and/or couldn't cope and probably didn't provide much of a role model.

And just to make sure my words don't come back to haunt me, my son is now grounded until he is 18.

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 23 May 2005, 21:35

Gemini wrote:by the same token, there is really not much for young adults to do. There have been no developments in Porty, for a cafe/drop in centre or any other places that
they can chill. We should be thinking more about giving them their place in society....

A group of us have been working quite hard on this lately, however, we face fierce opposition from residents who don't want teenagers of any description anywhere near them or their property. This makes it extremely difficult to site a cafe/drop in centre, a skatepark, basketball, five a sides, shelters or anything else where these kids can go. Since we don't have a spare field in the middle of nowhere in which to dump them, we are at a bit of a loss. You're right - we should be giving them their place in society. Under 12s have playschemes galore, pensioners have the lunch club and those in between have pubs. Teenagers have nothing. I was recently involved in a survey of approximately 600 teenagers and a great number of them cited a cafe/youth club as something they would really like but nobody is brave enough to take it on (including me!)

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 23 May 2005, 22:58

Of course you could argue, as a friend did earlier this evening, that this level of disorder is a natural consequence and symptom of the society we have chosen to live in. We should get used to it and quit complaining because capitalism entails inequaltiy and the losers will understandably find ways of showing their anger and frustration at what they perceive to be an unfair world.

I'm not sure that I have done his analysis justice but unless he is willing to post himself he will have to put up with my clumsy attempt at representing his views.

So, do we have only ourselves to blame?

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 23 May 2005, 22:59

Edit - this is in relation to "string em up" wangi's post, not Gemini's. Sorry Gemini, I will try to get into the habit of quoting !

It's OK Dada, Porty has not spotted it - yet!
But please get your act together in future, you know how he hates
slovenliness (God I hope I have the correct spelling) - Jing's - I have forgot to quote

Brian McCrow · Post by **Brian McCrow** » 24 May 2005, 09:06

Bob

Your friend is talking a load of twaddle. There are certain basic tenets, which a society chooses to follow e.g. respect for individuals and property, care for the young and elderly etc. This is independent of the commercial nature of the society.

We have forgotten to re-inforce these within our current society through the education system, behaviour of role models such as politicians, pop stars, sports stars and through the enforcing systems such as the police.

When I was growing up and I was bringing up our kids we tried to follow these basic tenets. Of course, we experimented with alcohol and some with drugs but we didn't smash cars, people's faces and break into property. We didn't swear like troopers in public places such as buses etc. We had respect for the elders in our society.

It's time to get back to these standards and to re-inforce them every day through the various media. For example, I find it appalling that Coronation Street tries to hold up the Battersby family in an appealing light when they represent work shy wasters and benefit fraudsters.

I find it terrible in today's society that I have to think twice about approaching kids about dropping litter in the street or causing a fracas on the bus for fear of getting beaten up. It doesn't stop me but I do consider the type of kids before I speak to them.

Brian McCrow · Post by **Brian McCrow** » 24 May 2005, 09:34

Epykat

I know it's difficult to get buy-in from every person to putting up facilities for the youth but it has to be done.

Our local politicians must get behind these initiatives as we need their leadership and support, including money.

In a democracy the majority view should prevail and this topic is too important to be blocked by one or two individuals. Can we not place the facility at the Pitz site?

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 24 May 2005, 12:22

Brian McCrow wrote:Epykat

I know it's difficult to get buy-in from every person to putting up facilities for the youth but it has to be done.

Our local politicians must get behind these initiatives as we need their leadership and support, including money.

In a democracy the majority view should prevail and this topic is too important to be blocked by one or two individuals. Can we not place the facility at the Pitz site?

Brian, if you know what's happening at the Pitz site (which incidentally I feel would be a a marevelous opportunity to build a recreational facility for our Teenagers - run by our teenagers - with support from good youth workers, so as to dispel any fears from Local residents) please let us know.
The Pitz topic is being kept very quiet, perhaps our local reps. could update us on this Forum, as to what current stage they are at?

Novastar · Post by **Novastar** » 24 May 2005, 15:20

Hi all...

Kids provisions sound like a great idea. Not saying there's nothing to do in Porty but beside's pubs and specialist activities (eg swimming pool, football pitches, etc) there seems very little for that age group - at least nothing I'm aware of.

Could do with some kind of youth club - anyone can come along for a fee and take part in all sorts of activities. They can then take these to any level either as part of the club (common things like a football team, dancing - whatever's found they like) or as part or other organisations.

However I'm not sure if this is getting to the problems on Kings Road and round the crossroads on the High Street (the usual place I have trouble from gangs of neds asking me if I want a fight). I don't think these kids would go to any kind of facility that was given.

I think a line has to be drawn between kids in general or who are just sitting in an area doing things everyone their age does and kids who are causing trouble. Beside changing society (which as much as I'd like to do from a forum I think is doubtful) the only other way I can see this is via a deterent - ie more police.

What's everyone else think?

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 24 May 2005, 15:49

Novastar, as far as I'm concerned you've hit severals nails on the head!

It's probably too late to do much for some of the 'youth' that's hanging about here [and elsewhere], but it would be good if the well intentioned teenagers got something/somewhere safe and fun to be. We have to think long and short term - there's certainly no magic POL wand that can be waved to suddenly turn baddies into goodies!

But as Epykat says - who will take on such a project?? I ran a youth club as a volunteer at Powys in Aberdeen 30 years ago [yikes - that long ago!!] and, as Powys was (and still is?) one of the most deprived parts of Aberdeen it was no easy task. Especially when often neither the volunteers nor the children got much support of any sort from some of the parents. It got pretty hairy at times - thank goodness for the janny's Alsation dog!

But I enjoyed it then. However, now I'm no longer a layabout student and am a lot older, I doubt I'd have the mental strength to cope!!

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 24 May 2005, 16:58

One thing we maybe could do is set up a POL yoof forum. They could air and share their views, would be interesting to see that.