New Portobello High School- Where and how?

[Mrs Mangle]

Holyrood may be designed for a certain amount of children, but it is very fast filling up. It has about 5/6 feeder schools around the city, not counting the kids for non-denomination schools.

Castlebrae has close to 350 kids a present.


So although it will never take over the number roll of Porty, it is indeed very close to it's 1000.

The new Holyrood High plans were on show recently and every parent of a child in this school were invited along at the begining of this month to look and offer opinion.

It is said it will be open within the next 18 month - 2 years, please remember people this is being built by Scottish/British workmen !


Just had a strange look from my builder husband.

[Keir Hardie]

Staff at Holyrood High School will tell you that this is not the case. Part of the new school will be built on the current footprint. Holyrood is a school designed for well under a 1000 pupils even without part of it being demolished. Don't therefore think this is a viable option.
However, as folk have pointed out, there's some space presumably available at Castlebrae.

I attended the open viewing of the Holy Rood plans, and it was Holy Rood staff at that meeting who explained that the new school will be completed before any of the old is removed. They showed us plans which illustrated the new building (which is 3 storeys plus a lower ground) being built as a boomerang shape round the periphery of the existing buildings. The building site will be cordoned off from the exsiting school until it is ready for occupation, and the move will be made in one stage. They seemed pretty clear, but perhaps not!! I understand it currently accommodates around 1050 pupils - I'm not sure what its capacity is.

[Green Dream]

Kittywink, I can only repeat that the meeting on the 16th is solely for parents with children at PHS. No-one else will be admitted entry. The meeting will, I understand, be chaired by Andrew Fraser, chair of the school board. He will not be trying to sell the proposal but simply stating the facts of the situation. It will be an opportunity for parents to find out more about the proposal and to voice any concerns they may have.

I suggest, respectfully, that before anyone else jumps to conclusions that you establish the facts behind this story. It all sounds a bit far-fetched to me.

I can vouch for Kittywink in the comment made that leaflets have been distributed to people in the school area inviting them to come to the meeting on the 16th. These have not been invites solely to parents but to everyone. It's fact, not far-fetched as you suggest.

[Maria]

Holyrood may be designed for a certain amount of children, but it is very fast filling up.

Mrs Mac, I believe that Holyrood it is currently operating beyond capacity, so it hasn't just filled up fast but is overflowing! I hazard that completion of a brand new school will make places at the school even more attractive.


Mr Hardie sounds like you and I have been given contradictory info. from staff regarding the possible decanting of pupils during the building of the new HHS, though my 'source' is usually most reliable!

[Maria]

I can vouch for Kittywink in the comment made that leaflets have been distributed to people in the school area inviting them to come to the meeting on the 16th. These have not been invites solely to parents but to everyone. It's fact, not far-fetched as you suggest.

Are these leaflets attributed to any particular group Green Dream? Do they give any contact info?

[Bob Jefferson]

Yes, this is very interesting. The school is certainly not responsible for the distribution of invitations to people other than parents with children at PHS. So who is distributing them and what do they hope to achieve?

[Mate of Marya]

Staff at Holyrood High School will tell you that this is not the case. Part of the new school will be built on the current footprint. Holyrood is a school designed for well under a 1000 pupils even without part of it being demolished. Don't therefore think this is a viable option.
However, as folk have pointed out, there's some space presumably available at Castlebrae.

I attended the open viewing of the Holy Rood plans, and it was Holy Rood staff at that meeting who explained that the new school will be completed before any of the old is removed. They showed us plans which illustrated the new building (which is 3 storeys plus a lower ground) being built as a boomerang shape round the periphery of the existing buildings. The building site will be cordoned off from the exsiting school until it is ready for occupation, and the move will be made in one stage. They seemed pretty clear, but perhaps not!! I understand it currently accommodates around 1050 pupils - I'm not sure what its capacity is.

Your right, the school role at Holyrood High is 1050, in a school fit for 900(I think 860 is the magic number, don't quote me) Holyrood is already forced to accommodate pupils in Temporary Teaching Units because they cannot accommodate the whole school role in the main teaching block. Holyrood is full, in fact there is a waiting list for certain year groups. This, and the current state of disrepair demands the need for a new build. Decanting pupils from PHS to Holyrood is not a viable option as the Holyrood campus is simply not big enough to house 1,400 PHS pupils. It can't sufficiently house 1,050 pupils at present. Even during the new build pupils will have to attend classes in TTU's. Could you honestly imagine nearly 2,500 pupils trying to work together under this adhoc arrangement? It works at Dalkeith because careful planning has allowed it.
Are you sure the building is three storeys high plus a lower ground floor? Is it not two storeys high with three storeys including a lower ground floor to compensate for the building being built on a gradient?

[Dave Connelly]

I attended Holyrood a year or so after it opened. At that time there were almost 1500 pupils in attendance. As a new school, there were no temporary units.

I believe we were told then that the school was designed for 1300, but maybe regulations governing space per pupil have changed downsizing its capacity.

[Bob Jefferson]

KH - re your question on funding, I can see that you would like to rebuild PHS on situ, decant the pupils to Holyrood, Castlebrae (or, let's face it, frankly anywhere else on Earth) and expect the money to come from the Council, the Scottish Executive, central government or the Good Fairy as long as it saved the Golf Course. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to deal with reality and as such none of these options actually exist. But don't take it from me, I'll try to get a response from the mouth of a horse.

Dada - sitting on the fence is a conscious decision to avoid having to make a decision. You are not sitting on the fence. You have already made the decision, you are just trying to make sure that you can justify it and I respect you for that. Our local councillors - now they are sitting on the fence, but not for much longer.

If this online debate was a fight it would have been stopped after 3 rounds. Golfers, dog walkers, short-cutters - we love you all. We will accomodate you all, embrace you all, indulge you to the nth degree. Thing is - we need the space you currently occupy to build new schools for our kids. I know, I know - the 150 year tradition etc etc. But look, we will give you a brand new golf course. The vast majority of you drive to the course anyway so it won't be a problem. We want YOU to help to design the new course. What would you like? Name it. A state of the art 9 hole golf course? A driving range? Facilities for kids? A purpose-built brand new club house? It's yours.

We will NOT be destroying green space. We are simply moving it. Still undecided? I don't blame you, it's a big decision.

I have thought long and hard about this. I have read every single post on this thread. I have attended every meeting and intend to attend every future meeting on this issue. I am in no doubt that the Council's proposal is the only feasible option. I, along with others, will demand that we have as much input as is possible into the detail of the proposal.

Still undecided? I am prepared to meet each of you individually to explain why I am certain that this is the best solution. Please pm me to make an appointment.

[Rex_Mundi]

Still undecided? I am prepared to meet each of you individually to explain why I am certain that this is the best solution. Please pm me to make an appointment.

"That is a very selfish reason," said the Rocket angrily. "What right have you to be happy? You should be thinking about others. In fact, you should be thinking about me.

I am always thinking about myself, and I expect everybody else to do the same. That is what is called sympathy. It is a beautiful virtue, and I possess it in a high degree.

Suppose, for instance, anything happened to me tonight, what a misfortune that would be for every one! The Prince and Princess would never be happy again, their whole married life would be spoiled; and as for the King, I know he would not get over it. Really, when I begin to reflect on the importance of my position, I am almost moved to tears."

Pip Pip

Rex

[seanie]

[quote="Keir Hardie"]
Finance :Addressing the biggest of these first – funding – the attitudes and decisions of our politicians are very important to this – they want to self finance, but we SHOULD be questioning this. I still haven’t seen a convincing detailed case as to why they cannot raise the funds either from the Scottish Executive or prudential borrowing. So we can’t even start to “consider the proposal in principleâ€

[seanie]

I’ll try to explain prudential borrowing again.

The crucial part is what’s considered prudential. And that’s determined by Central Government. They provide most of the funding to LA’s so they ultimately determine the framework LA’s can operate within.

The fundammental point is that prudential borrowing is not meant to increase Council spending. But taking on a loan, and the consequent repayments, obviously represents an additional financial burden. So how are these two things accomodated?

Borrowing is considered prudential only if the additional costs of repaying a loan are offset by savings made possible by borrowing the money. In construction terms it may mean long-term savings in maintainence, operating costs, heating bills due to better insulation values etc.

So the scope for prudential borrowing is not tied to project costs. It’s tied to a long-term assesment of potential savings with the project. And in normal circumstances that represents a fraction of project costs.

Prudential borrowing may help fund new schools, but it will not provide anywhere near sufficient funds itself.

[Mate of Marya]

I attended Holyrood a year or so after it opened. At that time there were almost 1500 pupils in attendance. As a new school, there were no temporary units.

I believe we were told then that the school was designed for 1300, but maybe regulations governing space per pupil have changed downsizing its capacity.

One of the major factors is the change in the school curriculum. There has been a great demand for IT suites. To cover health and safety regulations these suites must be a certain size, with certain lighting, flooring, furniture etc., It is not simply a case of installing 20+ computers in an existing classroom.
As well as the change in curriculum, there is also the inclusion policy to contend with. Learning support and special needs areas have had to be increased to accommodate additional pupils.
There is no "extra" space at Holyrood. In fact, some larger classrooms have been divided in two, conference rooms are now classrooms and at one point part of the staffroom was being used as a teaching area. Teaching units were erected to house part of the mathematics department. Teaching units will be used to house a few subject areas while the new school is being built but, not enough to call it a "decant." The vast majority of pupils and staff will simply move from one building to the new building.

[Keir Hardie]

Dada - sitting on the fence is a conscious decision to avoid having to make a decision. You are not sitting on the fence. You have already made the decision, you are just trying to make sure that you can justify it and I respect you for that. Our local councillors - now they are sitting on the fence, but not for much longer.

Unlike some who seem to be willing to commit to a decision based on very little justificstion whatsoever

If this online debate was a fight it would have been stopped after 3 rounds. Golfers, dog walkers, short-cutters - we love you all. We will accomodate you all, embrace you all, indulge you to the nth degree. Thing is - we need the space you currently occupy to build new schools for our kids. I know, I know - the 150 year tradition etc etc. But look, we will give you a brand new golf course. The vast majority of you drive to the course anyway so it won't be a problem. We want YOU to help to design the new course. What would you like? Name it. A state of the art 9 hole golf course? A driving range? Facilities for kids? A purpose-built brand new club house? It's yours.

A bit patronising I haven't heard many golfers shouting loudly that they want this fantastic new course with its fantastic facilities I am surprised, if it's such an attractive option, that "the golfers" are not firmly supporting the council proposals. Yes, I know, you're going to say it because they haven't had a chance to hear the detail of the new course, but then you haven't had a chance to hear the detail about the new schools, and it hasn't stopped you.

[Maria]

I attended Holyrood a year or so after it opened. At that time there were almost 1500 pupils in attendance. As a new school, there were no temporary units.

I believe we were told then that the school was designed for 1300, but maybe regulations governing space per pupil have changed downsizing its capacity.

One of the major factors is the change in the school curriculum. There has been a great demand for IT suites.

Did they have computers in your day Portobellosite ?

[Dave Connelly]

Did they have computers in your day Portobellosite ?

Ouch!

[Stephen McIntyre]

the scare mongering going on is fantastic by the way. i'm almost frightened to log in and read the latest episode.

I'm with you on this one bb. I'm particularly concerned about this meeting on the 15th that some parents are being excluded from. Do you know anything about it?

I can help Bob. Schools have come up with this new fangled idea where parents can make an appointment with their son or daughters class teacher to discuss past performande, any current issues and future development. It happens at St Johns and its what is happening at Towerbank on Wednesday.

I was unaware of this meeting and as a parent I now find myself excluded. Which is really annoying as I have to share an office with pal of Porty who has not one but two appointments. How can that be?

He says it because he has 2 children who attend Towerbank and he has made appointments with their teachers. This sound extremly suspicious to me, I wonder why dccairns et al are not saying anything about it?

In some ways I'm not bothered. I mean where is the analysis that prove events like this work? Where are the guidelines that specifically exclude those who don't have childern who attend the school? Where are the demographic breakdown of the new bl and powerleague housing developments and possible effects on future parents only meetings? Why are there no maps available for those people who might want to attend but don't have any connection with the school?
Are the golfers excluded too or will they not be interested cos' its a 4 hour walk from the course? Why are the meeting not open air at the Scottish Power site or among the urban wildlife in Holyrood greenbelt. What's going on?

[Dadaist]

What's going on?

Lunch.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Meeting at Portobello High School Thursday 16th March at 7:00pm.

Thought I would post an extract from the document that was issued by the Schoolboard to us parents. Italics:

What do you thinK?

You all have children at the school and some of you may have younger ones who will be coming in the next few years. What do you think? You can tell us by:

Coming to some discussion groups in the School etc etc

The discussions are to hear your views as Porty parents. We will not have any more information to give you.

So, this is quite clearly a parents only meeting with no new information about the schools. It is therefore totally in order that Gary "leaflet" Gowans attends this meeting as a Porty parent and makes his views known. It would also be in order for him to form a posse of similar minded Porty parents. As long as he does so on an honest basis and does not create an expectation that something quite different will occur.

I'm looking forward to Friday when some of my fellow POLers will no doubt be; shocked, surprised, horrified or find it bizzare that no further information was given at the meeting.

Edit: bit about GG the leaflet.

[Dadaist]

Meeting at Portobello High School Thursday 16th March at 7:00pm.

Thought I would post an extract from the document that was issued by the Schoolboard to us parents. Italics:

What do you thinK?

You all have children at the school and some of you may have younger ones who will be coming in the next few years. What do you think? You can tell us by:

Coming to some discussion groups in the School etc etc

The discussions are to hear your views as Porty parents. We will not have any more information to give you.

So, this is quite clearly a parents only meeting.

I'm looking forward to Friday when some of my fellow POLers will no doubt be; shocked, surprised, horrified or find it bizzare that no further information was given at the meeting.

Do I count for this meeting? I had disqualified myself, but it now depends on a definition of "few" years - in the case of mine, 9 years. Or is it only for those with a current child at PHS and the potential of future ones?

Seems to me like it would be more relevant to include those who have kids that will be involved in the new school than not!

[Stephen McIntyre]

Do I count for this meeting? I had disqualified myself, but it now depends on a definition of "few" years - in the case of mine, 9 years. Or is it only for those with a current child at PHS and the potential of future ones?

" You have all got children at the school........" How could it be any clearer? Have I given you any incling as to the purpose of the meeting?

Seems to me like it would be more relevant to include those who have kids that will be involved in the new school than not!

Dada,

Each feeder is holding its own meetings. Just to re-emphasise; the purpose of the meeting is

"The discussions are to hear your views as Porty parents"

All the clues are there.

[Dadaist]

Do I count for this meeting? I had disqualified myself, but it now depends on a definition of "few" years - in the case of mine, 9 years. Or is it only for those with a current child at PHS and the potential of future ones?

" You have all got children at the school........" How could it be any clearer? Have I given you any incling as to the purpose of the meeting?

Seems to me like it would be more relevant to include those who have kids that will be involved in the new school than not!

Dada,

Each feeder is holding its own meetings. Just to re-emphasise; the purpose of the meeting is

"The discussions are to hear your views as Porty parents"

All the clues are there.

So if your child is gestating, at nursery or home-educated - you don't get a say?

[Stephen McIntyre]

So if your child is gestating, at nursery or home-educated - you don't get a say?

Not at this meeting, unless you have other older children at PHS. As I said, all the clues are there.

I suspect you will fall into the general category of "Public Consultation" or if Emily goes to a local school nursery then you will be part of their consultation.

[Dadaist]

So if your child is gestating, at nursery or home-educated - you don't get a say?

Not at this meeting, unless you have other older children at PHS. As I said, all the clues are there.

I suspect you will fall into the general category of "Public Consultation" or if Emily goes to a local school nursery then you will be part of their consultation.

Oh ok - thanks for telling me. When and how are the public getting consulted?

[Stephen McIntyre]

Any day now Maureen Child's information sheet should drop through your letterbox. I'm surprised Bob has not published it here already or at least a link. It's not a secret, all one need do is ask Maureen to be added to her email list. Think you fell foul of this earlier in the thread.

[Dadaist]

Any day now Maureen Child's information sheet should drop through your letterbox. I'm surprised Bob has not published it here already or at least a link. It's not a secret, all one need do is ask Maureen to be added to her email list. Think you fell foul of this earlier in the thread.

Nah, Bob never said where it was from when he posted it - not my fault gov.

[Dadaist]

...but that's a good point though - my councillor is a Tory cos I'm in the Durhams so I might not get the leaflet.

Am I allowed to be on Maureen's mailing list if I am not one of her subjects?

[Stephen McIntyre]

...but that's a good point though - my councillor is a Tory cos I'm in the Durhams so I might not get the leaflet.

Am I allowed to be on Maureen's mailing list if I am not one of her subjects?

I think so.

You still may get the booklet. Apparently its being issued to all 12500 homes. It may not be authored by Maureen, I just got it from her office. Has a link been published? If not it should be. It contains lot of useful information.

[Dadaist]

...but that's a good point though - my councillor is a Tory cos I'm in the Durhams so I might not get the leaflet.

Am I allowed to be on Maureen's mailing list if I am not one of her subjects?

I think so.

You still may get the booklet. Apparently its being issued to all 12500 homes. It may not be authored by Maureen, I just got it from her office. Has a link been published? If not it should be. It contains lot of useful information.

Sounds good to me - I take it this one has more info than the one handed out at the PHS meeting? That was just a glossy propaganda rag.

[mr magnolia]

Each feeder is holding its own meetings.

I hope you are not trying to reignite the fever around the alleged mtg at Towerbank on Wed?

I think Dada is correct - this matter is possibly of greater importance to those children not yet at PHS (or yet to be born, if you want to go all misty eyed about it).

I would like to think that there will be meetings at the feeder schools, but I can't help thinking they would be to 'advise us' of decisions already made, and I haven't heard of any arrangements yet.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Think it may be the same one.

[Dadaist]

Each feeder is holding its own meetings.

I hope you are not trying to reignite the fever around the alleged mtg at Towerbank on Wed?

I think Dada is correct - this matter is possibly of greater importance to those children not yet at PHS (or yet to be born, if you want to go all misty eyed about it).

I would like to think that there will be meetings at the feeder schools, but I can't help thinking they would be to 'advise us' of decisions already made, and I haven't heard of any arrangements yet.

It's not being misty-eyed - nor is it irrelevant - once conception has taken place within the catchment area, one arguably has a more relevant say than someone who has a child which will not benefit from the new school.

Depending on how long this will all take, this could arguably discount quite a few existing PHS parents!

[Stephen McIntyre]

Each feeder is holding its own meetings.

I hope you are not trying to reignite the fever around the alleged mtg at Towerbank on Wed?

Hardly, I thought I made that clear a few posts back. That "meeting" is taking place over two evenings and friday afternoon. It is for parents of children who were born a few years back who attend Towerbank. Its not for potential future parents, next door neighbours of future parents, potential grandparents of potentiall future pupils or possible adoptive parents of future orphaned twinkles. In fact its A bit like our old-fashioned parent's nights.

I think Dada is correct - this matter is possibly of greater importance to those children not yet at PHS (or yet to be born, if you want to go all misty eyed about it).

I dont disagree with Dada. However, PHS schoolboard are perfectly entitled to call a meeting on whatever basis they decide. The one on Thursday is for parents who have pupils attending the school at present.

I would like to think that there will be meetings at the feeder schools, but I can't help thinking they would be to 'advise us' of decisions already made, and I haven't heard of any arrangements yet.

I believe there was some mention of a St John's meeting after March 28th. The council cannot organise any meetings until the officail consultation process begins, if the proposal gets that far, and if my understanding is correct that will be after April 25th. According to Ian Perry there wil definetly be pre-decision meetings.

[Dadaist]

Think it may be the same one.

Ahh. The colours and photos were pretty, and the layout was good. It was easy to read. I didn't find anything in it that wasn't in this thread though - but, er, was it maybe written by the same people that came up with the plan in the first place?

[Stephen McIntyre]

I didn't find anything in it that wasn't in this thread though -

Think there were some things and as you say it was better laid out.

It was written by the people who came up with the plan in the first place. They are the only people we have. Are you saying that the information contained within cannot be trusted? If so, where do we go from here?