New Portobello High School- Where and how?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 11 Jul 2006, 09:20

tom nimmo wrote:I'm not quite sure why Porty would think I am 'setting him up' when I was only pointing out that I don't fancy the prospect of seeing a monstrous erection on the bowling green!

And I meant setting me up in the sense of inviting an erection joke nothing more nothing less.

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 11 Jul 2006, 13:46

Porty wrote:
Epykat wrote:
bathst2 wrote:...the problem is the hiving off land for housing...but then I'm obviously getting naive in my old age!!??
This is a problem a lot of people have with the proposals - and no, I don't think you're naive - just realistic

PS Welcome to the debate
Agree totally with both of you and welcome bathst2.

Do I detect a certain mellowing in your old age? Or perhaps you smell defeat?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Jul 2006, 16:39

Epykat wrote:
Do I detect a certain mellowing in your old age? Or perhaps you smell defeat?

Neither, its just no-one is irritating me at the moment with unfounded claims, about the Golf Course or tying to move the school to the edge of the community or build it on the existing site. I'm sure when the new term gets going it will all kick off again.

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 12 Jul 2006, 22:56

Porty wrote:
Epykat wrote:
Do I detect a certain mellowing in your old age? Or perhaps you smell defeat?
Neither, its just no-one is irritating me at the moment with unfounded claims, about the Golf Course or tying to move the school to the edge of the community or build it on the existing site. I'm sure when the new term gets going it will all kick off again.

So, we're having a six week sabbatical of sorts?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 27 Jul 2006, 18:45

From Nick Stroud, sec Portobello Community Council:

Robert Gatliff has just received this message from the Council and thought you would like to see it.

Nick

Dear All

PORTOBELLO SCHOOLS CONSULTATION

I am writing to confirm that the report seeking permission to consult on the Portobello School proposals is due to go to the Council's Executive meeting on 12 September. We had hoped to take the report to the August Council meeting but it will not be finalised in time for this. I would like to reassure you that the report will be available at this stage to all Councillors and will be referred directly for cross party discussion through Council's scrutiny panel process. It is still our intention to start a public consultation, under the terms of Section 22A of the Education Act (Scotland) 1980, on the school sites in September 2006.

I hope to hold another briefing session for interested parties when the report is public and further information will follow nearer the time.

Yours sincerely

David Fenton

Head of Infrastructure and Development

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 28 Jul 2006, 12:13

From today's EN Letters Page (3rd letter down):

We must all chip in to save golf course

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 04 Aug 2006, 13:24

From today's EN Letters Page (last letter):

Add your name to Porty campaign

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 14 Aug 2006, 13:44

From today's EN - this may have some relevance. Seanie?

Will the space race put pressure on our green and pleasant land?

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 15 Aug 2006, 21:59

If it goes through as outlined then maybe but it would depend on exactly how the policy's worded and possibly the balance of provision of any proposals. I don't see why a proposal couldn't recreate the existing amenity, enhance and extend it, as well as increasing publicly accessible open space. But the final formulation of policy would be crucial.

However I'm sceptical that any such change would go through without some kind of public interest get out clause.

I can see the reasoning behind the proposals. There are various framework policies laid down by the Scottish Executive to protect green space; NPPG 11, PAN 65, SportScotland as a statutory consultee etc. However despite that there has been ongoing loss of open space. There's been lots of development leading to the loss of playing fields.

And many of those developments have been approved by the Scottish Executive.

If a controversial proposal gets appealed, or a Local Authority proposal is objected to, it goes up to the Executive. And despite their own policies on open space the Scottish Executive has on numerous occassions approved development on open space. That's because the planning system is intended to balance competing interests and sometimes certain policies may be judged to outweigh others.

To that extent I can see the Scottish Executive tightening policy on open/recreational space but I'd still expect them to leave themselves some flexibility and discretion.

Dave Connelly · Post by **Dave Connelly** » 18 Aug 2006, 14:46

I heard today that they had to turn away golfers at Porty the other day, as every Tee off was fully booked and there were people waiting.
Can anyone verify that?

gilo · Post by **gilo** » 18 Aug 2006, 19:45

Dave Connelly wrote:I heard today that they had to turn away golfers at Porty the other day, as every Tee off was fully booked and there were people waiting.
Can anyone verify that?

Wouldn't they benefit from 18 holes then, a bit more space!

Dave Connelly · Post by **Dave Connelly** » 18 Aug 2006, 20:15

No, they would have to wait about 5 years for any new course to be up and running. There are other 18 hole courses around and they choose to come to Porty. There is no guarantee that if the council build a new course that it will have more than 9 holes, Lawrence suggested that 6 was the new fad.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 18 Aug 2006, 23:16

We'd have to wait and see how many holes are proposed, at least if that option is pursued further. But if that is the case I don't see why people would have to suffer 5 years without a golf-course.

If you got to the point where the option of a school on the park and a replacement golf-course were adopted as the preferred option then the clock could start ticking on both. And the design and procurement of a secondary school should be a far more complicated and lengthier process than a replacement golf course. If managed carefully the development of a new golf-course could be well advanced before any construction work started on a new school.

It might not be possible to avoid a discontinuity in provision but I'd think it could be reduced to a fairly short period.

Dave Connelly · Post by **Dave Connelly** » 19 Aug 2006, 07:03

Seanie, you can problably help here. I was speaking to someone during the school holidays who was convinced that the plans had already been drawn up for the new school and that someone from the high school board had seen them.

I was under the impression, from the planning dept themselves, that there are no plans on paper at all. Any ideas or comment?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 19 Aug 2006, 13:20

Lawrence was talking about the possibility of a 2 x 6 hole course, which apparently is now fashionable in the States, but to be fair I think he probably knows as much about golf as I do. It may not be guaranteed, but I think it is much more likely that any replacement facility would be a traditional 18 hole course.

gilo · Post by **gilo** » 19 Aug 2006, 13:31

Bob Jefferson wrote: the possibility of a 2 x 6 hole course, which apparently is now fashionable in the States,

Maybe thay go round the course in their Hummers, only stopping in order to reach out of the window and take a swing?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 19 Aug 2006, 13:35

That's it. After the first 6 holes they stop off at the Drive Thru McDonalds for some sustenance before tackling the rest of the course.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 19 Aug 2006, 19:42

Dave Connelly wrote:Seanie, you can problably help here. I was speaking to someone during the school holidays who was convinced that the plans had already been drawn up for the new school and that someone from the high school board had seen them.

I was under the impression, from the planning dept themselves, that there are no plans on paper at all. Any ideas or comment?

I think the idea the plans are already drawn up is utterly absurd.

Designing a building of that scale is a long, complicated and costly process. It also requires considerable investigation and consultation with numerous bodies and groups. From the point of proceeding with a proposal, committing funds and resources, I'd expect the process of developing outline proposals to take up to a year. Scheme design and detailed design could be another year. And that process would be interupted by obtaining consent.

I'd expect the development of a viable design to take 2-3 years in total, with a construction period beyond that of up to 2 years.

You can't just secretly design a high school over the weekend.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 19 Aug 2006, 22:03

Dave Connelly wrote:Seanie, you can problably help here. I was speaking to someone during the school holidays who was convinced that the plans had already been drawn up for the new school and that someone from the high school board had seen them.

I was under the impression, from the planning dept themselves, that there are no plans on paper at all. Any ideas or comment?

Dave, I am so glad to learn that you have been speaking to your wife during the school holidays. I was present at the same meeting she was when Andrew Fraser said that he had been shown variious draft plans of how the school may look and where it will be located on the wasteland. Andrew didn't say but I guess the plans were indeed on paper. He also said that the concepts were put together by a company that had not yet tendered for any contract.

This post was moderated Tuesday 29 August 1.30 pm

This post was moderated Sunday 20 August 1.30 pm

Dave Connelly · Post by **Dave Connelly** » 20 Aug 2006, 11:07

Porty wrote:
Dave, I am so glad to learn that you have been speaking to your wife during the school holidays. I was present at the same meeting she was when Andrew Fraser said that he had been shown variious draft plans of how the school may look and where it will be located on the wasteland. Andrew didn't say but I guess the plans were indeed on paper. He also said that the concepts were put together by a company that had not yet tendered for any contract.

Indeed a reply which could only be written by you

This post was edited by Moderator Tuesday 29 August 1.30 pm

This post was edited by Moderator Sunday 20 August 1.30 pm

Alison Connelly · Post by **Alison Connelly** » 21 Aug 2006, 09:26

Rex_Mundi · Post by **Rex_Mundi** » 21 Aug 2006, 13:25

Perhaps when Mr Aitken gets the job as head of the council his allegiance will change in line with the "Preserving green spaces" which the Labour party advocates.

We can have no "50-50" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.

Teddy R.

pip pip

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 21 Aug 2006, 15:56

Hi Alison and welcome back.

Alison Connelly wrote:
Hello Stephen
Since you feel the need to attribute this to me, I would like to clarify that what Andrew Fraser (Chair of PHS Board) said was that he was invited by EDI to view draft layouts of the proposed building on our GREENSPACE (last time I looked, it was much more like a park than a "wasteland".... a park that many children have played on over the summer holidays). Strangely, the Chair of St John's Board wasn't extended the same invitation, and if I was a cynic, I would think EDI are up to no good

I am a cynic and I believe Andrew was invited prior to the introduction of St John's into the equation. As far as I know none of the other primary heads were invited either as it wasn't relevant.

Alison Connelly wrote: While it may take 2-3 years to finalise plans down to the detail , there is no doubt that an outline plan exists,

Outline plan? Where is the evidence on which your lack of doubt is based?

Alison Connelly wrote: and that despite the fact that the Council agreed to consult on a wider list of options, EDI are still hoping to make progress with the one for which they have bothered to produce an outline plan. I don't suppose what they are doing is against the law, but they operate in an underhand manner, and you can't blame us for not trusting them

Are you sure EDI only showed Andrew plans for the golf course?

And yes I can blame you for not trusting them. There is nothing wrong with a private company making a pitch on a conceptual basis. What have EDI ever done to harm the greater community of Portobello?

What is the basis of your mistrust?

bellybabe · Post by **bellybabe** » 21 Aug 2006, 16:02

Porty wrote:
I am a cynic and I believe Andrew was invited prior to the introduction of St John's into the equation. As far as I know none of the other primary heads were invited either as it wasn't relevant.

Perhaps it could be considered not relevant to other primary heads, but since the proposal I was initally informed of - by Mr Jobson - concerned St John's, I think it is in fact very relevant. Surely if there are two schools involved in the proposal, both should be included in anything to do with that proposal? And if St Johns is no longer figuring in the proposal then that should be made clear to all those involved in St Johns. If it is figuring, why should it be ignored?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 21 Aug 2006, 16:15

Its all in the timing.

Andrew Fraser has spent the last 3 or 4 years in a variety of meetings and visits with personell from the council and others trying to achieve a solution for a badly needed new school. I believe he has inspected every potential location. So he has had quite a bit of involvement where others have had none. There is no need to assume that anything untoward is going on. After all, the consultation process has not even begun yet.

Dave Connelly · Post by **Dave Connelly** » 21 Aug 2006, 22:32

Porty wrote:Its all in the timing.

Andrew Fraser has spent the last 3 or 4 years in a variety of meetings and visits with personell from the council and others trying to achieve a solution for a badly needed new school. I believe he has inspected every potential location. So he has had quite a bit of involvement where others have had none. There is no need to assume that anything untoward is going on. After all, the consultation process has not even begun yet.

The consultation process may not have officially begun, but it certainly has begun. I wouldn't trust this council, (as a whole) at all as far as this issue is concerned. You clearly do and thats is of course your choice.

Alison Connelly · Post by **Alison Connelly** » 22 Aug 2006, 08:36

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 22 Aug 2006, 17:38

It'd be easy enough to knock up an indicative plan of how the schools might be accomodated on the site. You could quite quickly take CAD drawings of similar sized schools and overlay them over a site plan. That could give a reasonable impression of the sort of land take and the possible relationship between the buildings.

But at this stage it would only be indicative and speculative.

The process of actually determining the massing and location would be a long one and involve extensive consultation,site investigation etc. That's not only difficult to keep quiet, but also time consuming and costly. The whole design, and indeed construction process, is laid out in phases; Feasibilty Studies, Outline Proposals, Scheme Design, Detailed Design, Production Information etc.

You don't start on the next phase until the Client has signed off on the last. Otherwise you could be just throwing money away. They won't have gone much further than knocking up a few quick outline proposals because anything more extensive would be a waste of resources.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 22 Aug 2006, 20:20

The following is the standard RIBA procedure;

PROJECT STAGES

A: Appraisal Identification of client's requirements and possible constraints on development. Preparation of studies to enable the client to decide whether to proceed and to select probable procurement method.

B: Strategic Briefing Preparation of Strategic Brief by, or on behalf of, the client confirming key requirements and constraints. Identification of procedures, organisational structure and range of consultants and others to be engaged for the project. [Identifies the strategic brief (as CIB Guide) which becomes the clear responsibility of the client]

C: Outline proposals. Commence development of strategic brief into full project brief. Preparation of outline proposals and estimate of cost. Review of procurement route.

D: Detailed proposals. Complete development of the project brief. Preparation of detailed proposals. Application for full development control approval.

E: Final proposals. Preparation of final proposals for the Project sufficient for co-ordination of all components and elements of the Project.

F: Production information F1: Preparation of production information in sufficient detail to enable a tender or tenders to be obtained. Application for statutory approvals. F2: Preparation of further production information required under the building contract. [Now in two parts, F1 - the production information sufficient to obtain tenders and F2 - the balance required under the building contract to complete the information for construction]

G: Tender documentation. Preparation and collation of tender documentation in sufficient detail to enable a tender or tenders to be obtained for the construction of the Project. [Solely concerned with the documentation required for tenders. Particularly useful with D+B or management contracts]

H: Tender action. Identification and evaluation of potential contractors and/or specialists for the construction of the project. Obtaining and appraising tenders and submission of recommendations to the client.

J: Mobilisation. Letting the building contract, appointing the contractor. Issuing of production information to the contractor. Arranging site handover to the contractor.

K: Construction to Practical Completion. Administration of the building contract up to and including practical completion. Provision to the contractor of further information as and when reasonably required.

L: After Practical completion. Administration of the building contract after practical completion. Making final inspections and settling the final account. [Clearly separated from the construction phase]

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 22 Aug 2006, 20:43

Now the initial stages of a project aren't so linear and there's a degree of back and forth, and the latter stages aren't always so clear cut as they should be. Design is an iterative process. You develop a proposal, consult on it, evaluate and amend it. And you have to repeat that process, in a myriad of ways, to develop a suitable design. Done properly it is a very time consuming process.

Formally this process hasn't even started yet. But to even get off the ground there will be rough costings, area calculations etc. to guide a decision. The process of design is a development from the vague to the particular and at this point in time some, perhaps many, aspects of any proposal will be speculative and subject to change.

So it comes down to what's understood by the phrase "the plans had already been drawn up for the new school".

If that is supposed to mean that a considerable amount of design development has taken place and that the form and location of the school had already been settled on then I'd say that's silly.

If it's taken to mean that some rough costings, an outline area assessment, and sombody's sketched a couple of indicative plans at 1/1000 then I'd say what do you expect them to do?

That's not evidence that the proposals are a done deal. It's evidence that the viability of the proposals are being tested.

Dave Connelly · Post by **Dave Connelly** » 23 Aug 2006, 21:53

Would you beleive it, Bonaly Primary School have been decanted to Darroch. Colinton to Tollcross, not too far for the 5 and 6 year olds really.

http://www.bonaly.edin.sch.uk/newslette ... 202006.doc

Never mind the teachers, parents are on board and the pupils apparently dont mind

This has been a particularly hectic year for us all as we have planned for our move to Darroch. However, as the Review Report indicates we have managed to maintain the highest standards of education throughout. This has only been possible because of the efforts of staff, parents and pupils who have continued to work so hard to make Bonaly what it is. If there was ever a year where everyone deserved a well earned rest, it is this one. I would, therefore, wish everyone a restful holiday and look forward to seeing you all in August, refreshed and ready for the challenges of a new year.

Yours sincerely

Gordon Robertson
Headteacher

Well done Mr Robertson and co.

Dave Connelly · Post by **Dave Connelly** » 23 Aug 2006, 21:57

seanie wrote:If it's taken to mean that some rough costings, an outline area assessment, and sombody's sketched a couple of indicative plans at 1/1000 then I'd say what do you expect them to do?

That's not evidence that the proposals are a done deal. It's evidence that the viability of the proposals are being tested.

If that is whats happened, fair enough, but why were they not honest enough to say that, do you think

bathst2 · Post by **bathst2** » 23 Aug 2006, 23:24

I do wonder how many adults on either "side" of this current controversy in Portobello (let alone children attending the schools!) can keep up with the all the techical and legal exchanges involved on this site? I'm not meaning to be rude to those of you who know about this stuff and are fired up to research it but what an indicator of how easy it is to put people off involvement in local issues....just one hint tho please keep the language easy enough for most people to follow, thanks.

Rex_Mundi · Post by **Rex_Mundi** » 24 Aug 2006, 07:59

Oh Dear, another lamb to the proverbial...

Welcome New person, (PC reply, no gender allocation). I think if you want a balanced view of the whole situation without having to trail through hundreds of entries, then browse the following sites and make your own mind up.

http://www.portygreenkeepers.org.uk/

http://www.pfans.org.uk/

Both of which advocate having either upgraded or new schools.

Don't let the bullies on this site put you off, as they will undoubtably will try to.

"Advice is seldom welcome, and those who need it the most, like it the least."

Lord Chesterfield, (British statesman, diplomat and sometimes wit.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 24 Aug 2006, 20:03

Dave Connelly wrote:
seanie wrote:If it's taken to mean that some rough costings, an outline area assessment, and sombody's sketched a couple of indicative plans at 1/1000 then I'd say what do you expect them to do?

That's not evidence that the proposals are a done deal. It's evidence that the viability of the proposals are being tested.
If that is whats happened, fair enough, but why were they not honest enough to say that, do you think

I don't know how the plans were described or their context. However I can understand if there's some sensitivity about showing them. Because even if very rough and ready people might get the wrong end of the stick and get carried away with speculation.

Alison described them as "outline/draft plans".

Not having seen them I can't make a judgement on their detail. At this stage I'd expect it to be pretty basic and indicative only. As I've said an outline/draft plan could be knocked up very quickly indeed, if only only to explore site area, constraints etc.

But to me it'd be quite a leap to the conclusion that "the plans had already been drawn up for the new school."

Talk Porty ~ Portobello

New Portobello High School- Where and how?

Re: school and community

Re: school and community

Re: school and community

golfie again

Re: golfie again

Bonaly Decanted to Darroch

losing it...in more ways than one!!