Superstore - New Petrol Station - Parking - New Access

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 29 Jan 2007, 17:38

I make no secret of the fact that I supported PCATs. The possible increase in traffic that would have come with a major supermarket was, I felt, a matter of concern in itself.
However, if you take a look at Musselburgh High street it seems to have a fairly thriving mix of small businesses despite having both a Somerfield and a Tesco.

Post by **wangi** » 29 Jan 2007, 17:55

tom nimmo wrote:Spare a thought for the small local shops which scrape by on long hours and ...

? It's a ghost town come half five and all day Sunday... Oh, except for newsagents and a multitude of takeaways - great!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 29 Jan 2007, 18:40

I don't want Tesco in Portobello. I know we like to make fun of Scotmid but I find that they are fine for the basics and they have a good range of organic and fair trade produce that I feel deserves support. And they are open on Sunday wangi! We are very fortunate to have an award-winning butcher, a fishmonger, independent fruit and veg shops, chemists etc on our doorstep.

What will Tesco offer that we can't get already? And would the advantages of having (maybe) slightly cheaper prices and (perhaps) a greater choice of produce outweigh the disadvantage that this might put other traders out of business?

We may be powerless to stop it, but I won't be alone in boycotting it if it goes ahead. I don't need 39 different kinds of breakfast cereal at 9pm on a Sunday and I'm more than happy with Scotmid's tinned tomatoes.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 29 Jan 2007, 18:48

wangi wrote: ? It's a ghost town come half five and all day Sunday... Oh, except for newsagents and a multitude of takeaways - great!

If I need to do my essential shopping after 5.30 on a week-day or on a Sunday most of the local shops are still open so I don't think I've experienced the "ghost town" effect. Mind you, I could have mistaken it for peace and quiet. I could add lots more but there's no point, Bob has said it all.

ali · Post by **ali** » 29 Jan 2007, 20:51

Bob Jefferson wrote:I don't want Tesco in Portobello. I know we like to make fun of Scotmid but I find that they are fine for the basics and they have a good range of organic and fair trade produce that I feel deserves support. And they are open on Sunday wangi! We are very fortunate to have an award-winning butcher, a fishmonger, independent fruit and veg shops, chemists etc on our doorstep.

What will Tesco offer that we can't get already? And would the advantages of having (maybe) slightly cheaper prices and (perhaps) a greater choice of produce outweigh the disadvantage that this might put other traders out of business?

We may be powerless to stop it, but I won't be alone in boycotting it if it goes ahead. I don't need 39 different kinds of breakfast cereal at 9pm on a Sunday and I'm more than happy with Scotmid's tinned tomatoes.

I note that you don't address my point about that large element of the population of Portobello who for various reasons don't have access to their own transport to take advantage of those supermarkets not within walking distance.

What about them?

You need to have a think about the selfishness displayed by you and those like you who are against a metro-style supermarket.

And Marya makes a good point. Do you really think the congestion caused by cars could get much worse than it is at the moment? Musselburgh seems to me to have a vibrant, thriving High Steet.
Car owners have no one else to blame for the congestion and pollution they cause and deserve everything they get if they choose to spend most of their day stuck in a jam.

......and your boycott will only mean that I won't be stuck behind you in the queue.....................

cheers
ali

Post by **wangi** » 29 Jan 2007, 21:39

Bob Jefferson wrote:And they are open on Sunday wangi!

Eh, what's open on Sunday that can't be found in a thousand downtrodden high streets? The shops open on Sunday are the run-of-the-mill off-licences, newsagents and a chain super market. Oh, and of course bookies.

It's the independent shops I was talking about - how many of those are open on Sunday?

I'm pretty sure I'm not unique in not getting home from work until after six weekdays and being too busy Saturday - if local shops need the extra business then surely it makes sense to open when it's convenient for people to shop. After all, why do you think the big supermarkets are open till 22:00, or even 24 hours. It's because that's when people aren't at work.

Sure, there are people around shopping during the day time, but the demographic is obvious - elderly and people looking after children. Open longer hours and you make your shop available to a much wider group of people.

impossiblevoices · Post by **impossiblevoices** » 29 Jan 2007, 23:44

Bring on Tesco I say! I for one am sick of being overcharged for day to day produce because there is no where else to go in Porty. We have stopped shopping in one Porty establishment altogether because of the ridiculous prices.

Independent retailers can coexist beside larger chains. Take Morningside for example. A wide variety of indy's exist along side Waitrose and Marks and Spencer. The cheesemongers, butchers and chocolatiers have all managed to survive.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 30 Jan 2007, 00:59

Ali - I don't think that Tesco, as the largest retailer in the UK, have much to worry about if I and a few like-minded others decide to boycott its Portobello branch and I don't see that I'm being selfish in taking a principled stand. I'm sure that most of these elderly, disabled and poverty-stricken people you speak of are quite happy with what Scotmid has to offer and I doubt the fact that a loaf of bread may be a penny or two cheaper in Tesco will make a significant difference to their quality of life.

wangi - butchers and fishmongers have always closed on a Sunday in my experience. The fact that they are both now closed on a Monday means that I have to plan meals a little more carefully, but it's not something that I regard as a major inconvenience and the staff are entitled to their days off just like everyone else. And if I'm really stuck, there are numerous take-away options to choose from.

IV - realistically, how much do you think you would actually save, on a weekly basis, if you shopped in Tesco as opposed to shopping locally, comparing like for like produce? I find that whenever I do a supermarket shop (which isn't very often) I end up spending far more because I make impulse purchases.

ali · Post by **ali** » 30 Jan 2007, 09:38

Bob Jefferson wrote:................................ I don't see that I'm being selfish in taking a principled stand. I'm sure that most of these elderly, disabled and poverty-stricken people you speak of are quite happy with what Scotmid has to offer .

What makes you so sure? You don't know that. You just made it up.Your Portobello's answer to Marie Antoinette - "let them eat cake"

Bob Jefferson wrote:........and I doubt the fact that a loaf of bread may be a penny or two cheaper in Tesco will make a significant difference to their quality of life

and I doubt whether the loss of Joe Finlay's black pudding would make a significant difference to your quality of life.

Your "principled stand" is making you sound right arrogant.

*moderated to remove profanity.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 30 Jan 2007, 14:07

ali wrote: Your "principled stand" is making you sound right arrogant.

*moderated to remove profanity.

I read the unabridged version of this before it was moderated so I saw the missing words. Not long ago you claimed that I had offended you by saying something about Bob and his (sic) website yet you think it's ok to say this because you have a different opinion regards supermarkets.
Double standards or what? Ok, so you want a supermarket and Bob doesn't. Bob does not have the power on his own to stop it happening but fair play to him if he is a man of principle and will not use a supermarket should it appear.
I am not the main shopper in my house and there is an ongoing disagreement about my desire to shop locally and to only buy food as and when it is needed. Supermarket shopping, in my opinion, leads to people stockpiling loads of food that they don't actually need at the time. In my house the freezer is full to the brim and I can hardly get anything else in the cupboards. If I lived alone and did the food shopping I would buy everything I needed locally. If what I wanted was not available locally then it would be a sign to me that I didn't need it in the first place. When I put this to Mrs N (everytime she comes back from Sainsburys and Lidl with the back of the car dragging on the ground) she warns me to be careful what I wish for and to go and do the shopping myself if I am so ******* clever. At that point I usually make a tactical retreat.
Yo Scotmid, at least you meet my every need. Thanks.

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 30 Jan 2007, 14:39

There was I this morning, driving to the supermarket thinking of beans, the Timewarp and Tom Nimmos comments, when it occurred that I hadn't made my point of view clear.

I'm privileged enough to be able to drive and have a car. I shop at Tesco or Asda or other large chains as they have a wide range of products that are not always available locally but I CHOOSE to use the butchers, fruit and veg shops and the bank in the High Street. If there was a say Tesco locally I'd drive less but still be in Findlays for the bacon and sausages.

Surely I'm not the only one that thinks there is space for both types of retailing.
Surely I'm not the only one who will grab a bargain from Tesco but like the quality from local buthchers,bakers etc. or the sometimes cheaper prices in fruit and veg
But it would be difficult to do the Timewarp in Borders
Fruit and Veg shop.

Izzie · Post by **Izzie** » 30 Jan 2007, 15:25

Like you SD I choose to go to Asda but use the butcher but not the fruit and veg shops.

Unlike Bob a penny here and a penny there does help to make the pennies go further.

So does this make all the people that use a supermarket bad people I hope not.

Maybe if the prices in the local shops were a bit lower I would not need to go to Asda or Tesco

impossiblevoices · Post by **impossiblevoices** » 30 Jan 2007, 16:59

If what I wanted was not available locally then it would be a sign to me that I didn't need it in the first place.

TN - That is absolute nonsense, of the highest degree.

What if you needed something in particular for a recipe and The Mighty Scotmid didn't stock it? Are you saying that we shouldn't bother to try new things and just stick to eating co-op mince every night? Your comment sir, is ridiculous.

Mrs IV has made the point that surely a Tesco would be competition for Scotmid first and foremost rather than anyone else. I know we would still buy our haggis from Findlays...

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 30 Jan 2007, 18:04

Right, get your tins out and let's make some like for like comparisons. Then we will factor in your fuel costs and the extra time it takes you to get to Asda, Tesco whatever and let's see who is better off.

I hate the experience of supermarket shopping. I can walk to Portobello High Street in less time than it takes to walk across the car park of some of the larger stores. It is almost certain that I will meet friendly faces on the way, which admittedly can add to the time it takes to buy a pint of milk but at least I'm wasting time in a pleasant way talking to friends and neighbours rather than being stuck in a traffic jam or a supermarket queue. I will be greeted by local shopkeepers who remember my name and value my custom.

That's the difference. I enjoy shopping locally. I endure supermarket shopping.

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 30 Jan 2007, 19:04

I know that at least four of my nearest neighbours (and me) use the Tesco and Asda home delivery services weekly. I did ponder a bit before I began as I don't like contributing to the wee junction's traffic jams, and I'd have preferred to use local businesses for the main bulk of groceries, but none of them did home deliveries so it was an easier decision in the end.

ali · Post by **ali** » 30 Jan 2007, 19:56

tom nimmo wrote:
ali wrote: Your "principled stand" is making you sound right arrogant.

*moderated to remove profanity.
I read the unabridged version of this before it was moderated so I saw the missing words. Not long ago you claimed that I had offended you by saying something about Bob and his (sic) website yet you think it's ok to say this because you have a different opinion regards supermarkets.
Double standards or what?

You're right Tom. I apologise to Bob for questioning his parentage. In mitigation it was before I had had my coco-pops so my blood sugar was a little low. By the time I got to work I was already regretting my outburst.

with regard to the offence caused by you to me, well if you were paying attention you would've noticed that I was well and truly hoist by my own petard a couple of days later when I committed the exact same offence on the dog pie thread. I'm surprised you missed it.........

tom nimmo wrote:............I am not the main shopper in my house ........... If I lived alone and did the food shopping I would buy everything I needed locally. If what I wanted was not available locally then it would be a sign to me that I didn't need it in the first place. ............
Yo Scotmid, at least you meet my every need. Thanks.

As you say, you are not a shopper. Your beautiful theory would be severely tested if you relied on the local shops and Scotmid.

ali · Post by **ali** » 30 Jan 2007, 20:00

impossiblevoices wrote:
If what I wanted was not available locally then it would be a sign to me that I didn't need it in the first place.
TN - That is absolute nonsense, of the highest degree.

What if you needed something in particular for a recipe and The Mighty Scotmid didn't stock it? Are you saying that we shouldn't bother to try new things and just stick to eating co-op mince every night? Your comment sir, is ridiculous.

Mrs IV has made the point that surely a Tesco would be competition for Scotmid first and foremost rather than anyone else. I know we would still buy our haggis from Findlays...

Impeccably put (and polite too).

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 30 Jan 2007, 23:09

impossiblevoices wrote: What if you needed something in particular for a recipe and The Mighty Scotmid didn't stock it? Are you saying that we shouldn't bother to try new things and just stick to eating co-op mince every night? Your comment sir, is ridiculous.

That's not fair. Who said anything about using recipes? Granted, Scotmid doesn't have everything so I make do with what I can get elsewhere, preferably in Portobello. My main problem with shopping emporiums like Asda is that when I do go there I end up buying lots of stuff I don't actually want. It's something to with the bright lights and way too much choice. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you you do, I'm just saying I prefer to do what I do (or would do if I actually took responsibility for doing ALL the family shopping) When I do get to do the cooking I actually enjoy, like Bob does, shopping and wandering aimlessly around Portobello with my list in my hand. I can't believe that you missed the opportunity to say "your comment sir, is mince" but I appreciate being called sir by people other than police officers. Can I come round to yours for a meal next time you are using a recipe?

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 31 Jan 2007, 10:53

Must admit to a supermarket impulse buy yesterday.
Hardengreen Tesco had 256mb mp3 players for Â£4.97. Boughjt 6 ( well thats 1 each )
Also bought grapes but as they were all eaten whilst lying on the bunker after being washed, so I'll be up to see Mike in Borders for more friut. Then will need bacon and a visit to the bank to pay a bill. So supermarket shopping doesn't stop me using local shops.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 31 Jan 2007, 18:53

SoupDragon wrote: Hardengreen Tesco had 256mb mp3 players for Â£4.97. Boughjt 6 ( well thats 1 each )

Nice one soupdragon. Now that's what I call a bargain. Considering a comment you made earlier in this thread I hope you were thinking of the Timewarp at the time and that you did a quick jump to the right followed by a step to the left etc, etc.

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 01 Feb 2007, 14:10

Too right, with my hands on my hips and knees in tight.

Actually Tesco don't play music like they do in Asda, where Clanger 1 and I danced the Timewarp in the middle of the aisle, so have to provide my own music.
Floyd's Comfortably Numb seems appropriate somehow.

2 out of the 6 mp3 players now in use and Mr Soupy eyeing one up so he can have podcast/books on one and music on another

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 02 Feb 2007, 13:07

SoupDragon wrote:Also bought grapes but they were all eaten whilst lying on the bunker after being washed,

I know I'll get a scolding for saying this on the serious channel, but why were you lying on the bunker

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 02 Feb 2007, 16:30

Consider yourself chided, Foxy, although it was really SoupyD and TomN who started it!

Anyway, TG and I were noting that the "To Let/May Sell" sign is up again at the Red Giant.

Let's hope that it stays up when the Clan Magnolia are passing.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 27 Feb 2007, 18:06

The results of the BL questionnaire are now available:

Questionnaire Results

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Mar 2007, 14:41

Bob Jefferson wrote:
Questionnaire Results

Some loaded questions and sone no brainers. This is not a popularity contest. The land in question has to be considered as part of a plan for the entire city and considerations must include, housing, employment, industry, lesiure and commerce. Just because the land happens to be located in Portobello doesn't bestow any extra weight to the views and opinions of Portobello residents to the exclusion of wider City needs.

The planners have stated their preference for mixed use and BL developments are doing their best to pitch for near 100% residential. The questionnaire makes much of 45% of respondents believe that housng is most important and no doubt will look to use this as "evidence" of support for near 100% residential. However, this means that 55% of people don't think housing is most important, indeed if one counts the top 3 "most important" categories then only 52% of people want housing. As I say its not a popularity contest but if it were then this response favours the council position.

It also makes a mockery of the PCATS claim to speak on behalf of the "community" for 100% housing.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 12 Mar 2007, 16:56

Porty wrote: BL developments are doing their best to pitch for near 100% residential.

I didn't think that was the case Porty.When they first addressed the Community Council they seemed open to suggestions for a 'mixed' development suggesting studios/workshop premises/hotel as well as private housing. Have they since changed their tune?

It also makes a mockery of the PCATS claim to speak on behalf of the "community" for 100% housing.

Are you sure they do? I've looked at the PCATS website but can't see anything that suggests 100% housing is part of their aim. The last entry certainly urges people to respond to the BL questionaire, so that the wishes of the Community are taken on board but it doesn't tell folk what to ask for.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Mar 2007, 17:35

Marya wrote:
Porty wrote: BL developments are doing their best to It also makes a mockery of the PCATS claim to speak on behalf of the "community" for 100% housing.
Are you sure they do? I've looked at the PCATS website but can't see anything that suggests 100% housing is part of their aim. The last entry certainly urges people to respond to the BL questionaire, so that the wishes of the Community are taken on board but it doesn't tell folk what to ask for.

I must confes I haven't looked at the PCATS website for ages. I was taking the lead from the following and from dc Cairns claim at a recent CC meeting that in a show of hands at a PCATS public meeting there was overwhelming support for housing. Apparently this qualifies as a community endorsement.

Stephen Hawkins wrote:Our Christmas update gave you the news that a new developer, BL Developments, had bought the former Scottish Power site and that they intended putting housing on it. This was good news and so far we have had a very positive response from this new developer. The PCATS committee had a meeting with Phil Myerscough, the managing director, and he has also given a short presentation to the Community Council.

However, before any plans are drawn up, the City of Edinburgh Council wants to develop a Master Plan for the west end of Portobello to encompass all of the possible development sites eg. the Pitz site. We have been promised that the community will be fully involved in this Master Plan and the Council are currently going through the process of appointing a consultant to carry out this exercise.

You will remember how much we needed our own consultants at the Public Inquiry last March to argue from the communits point of view. The PCATS committee believe it would be beneficial to make use of our own consultant when the Master Plan is being produced. A consultant who knows planning guidance would be able to advise us better of the advantages or pitfalls of a particular proposal.

We have almost £3000 in the bank from the excellent response you made to the fund raising efforts and we think it would be good use of the money to make sure we get the developments we want in Portobello. If you have any comments for or against this use of the money then please let us know by emailing me.

Lets look forward to getting quality housing on this site that enhances Portobello.

See what I mean?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Mar 2007, 17:55

Marya wrote:
Porty wrote: BL developments are doing their best to pitch for near 100% residential.
I didn't think that was the case Porty.When they first addressed the Community Council they seemed open to suggestions for a 'mixed' development suggesting studios/workshop premises/hotel as well as private housing. Have they since changed their tune?

No change as far as I can tell.

I used the phrase near 100% residential. BL did mention a hotel. As for the workshops/studios? The questionnaire suggests that they shall be on the ground floor with residences above them. I dont thinl we can be talking a large percentage of the area in question.

And I'm sure you have not forgotten the Miami scenario and what happened to the ground floor commercial premises there?

BL attended a CC meeting and started a mini panic that the council had gone ahead and produced a Brief for the site that suggested 50% residential. They obvioulsy strongly disagreed with that. Their actions precipitated the return of the superstore articke in the EN and the echange betwen Trevor Davies and Stephen Hawkins in the letters page.

Marya out of interest, do you think that industrial/warehouse buildings in North West Portobello will be of benefit to the residents of NW Portobello, is a bit of a silly question?

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 12 Mar 2007, 19:28

Porty wrote:I must confes I haven't looked at the PCATS website for ages. I was taking the lead from the following and from dc Cairns claim at a recent CC meeting that in a show of hands at a PCATS public meeting there was overwhelming support for housing. Apparently this qualifies as a community endorsement.

Stephen Hawkins wrote:
Lets look forward to getting quality housing on this site that enhances Portobello.
See what I mean?

See where you get the idea that the main thrust is housing, but still think it is unclear if that is solely what PCATS would wish to see on that site.

I only asked if BL had 'changed their tune' as I missed the last CC meeting where the results of the questionnaire were discussed so didn't know what their latest stance was. Hopefully, if it is a 'mixed' development that eventually gets built, it won't be a repeat of the Miami flats scenario as I noticed that according to the Evening News article It's a powerhouse of creative energy they already have a group of artists on site. Mind you they are there rent free at the moment...

And yes, you are quite right, it is a daft question

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Mar 2007, 21:36

Marya wrote: See where you get the idea that the main thrust is housing, but still think it is unclear if that is solely what PCATS would wish to see on that site.

You have a point there is a lack of clarity. I have never heard or read PCATS actually say that they want 100% housing. The bottom line is they are driven to not have a superstore on the Scottish Power site. It is very difficult, perhaps impossible to change housing permission or houses into either a superstore or large supermarket. It is easier with smaller retail, warehouse or other commercial premises. And although PCATS have never stated they want 100% residential they have never said that they want any alternative either. In fact they have consistently claimed to have a mandate from the community for housing on the SP site.

The BL questionnaire strongly suggests that housing is the most important desire for only a minority of Portobello residents, a substantial minority but a minority all the same. So where did PCATS get their mandate from? In my book it can only be the personal desire of those at the core of PCATS.

It may not say so on the PCATS website but the Stephen Hawkins statement from above was taken from the supposed “consultation” that PCATS conducted with their supporters.. Stephen informs people that there is going to be a consultation, he seeks permission to employ a consultant on behalf of PCATS . However, he doesn’t wait for the consultation; he doesn’t wait for the findings of the consultant that PCATS may employ. He just tells people straight what objective they should get behind :

Stephen Hawkins wrote:
Lets look forward to getting quality housing on this site that enhances Portobello.

So PCATS are looking forward to housing regardless of what any consultation with the people may bring.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Mar 2007, 23:40

Marya wrote:
And yes, you are quite right, it is a daft question

Yep:

4. Do you feel industrial/warehouse premises in North
would benefit residents of North West Portobello?

Doh! It would have been interesting to see the answer to "Do you feel that a decent Supermarket in North West Portobello
would benefit residents of North West Portobello?" or even a cornershop.

5. Do you feel combining housing with studio work premises on the
ground floor would benefit employment within North West Portobello?

The flaw in this question is one could substitute ANY establishment in which people are employed and the answer would be yes.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 13 Mar 2007, 11:27

Porty wrote:
Stephen Hawkins wrote:
Lets look forward to getting quality housing on this site that enhances Portobello.
So PCATS are looking forward to housing regardless of what any consultation with the people may bring.

I'm not sure if that follows. If you read the whole original statement by Hawkins, you'll see that at the start of it he says that BL have bought the land and want to put housing on it.

In that context, the last sentence - at least in my interpretation - is merely a qualification, that is to say that seeing as BL intend housing it may as well be decent quality and enhance Portobello.

Like I said, that's just my interpretation. I wouldn't ever dare accuse you of twisting Hawkins words or taking him out of context - it's coming up to a year's anniversary of him publishing this particular sentence which must make you an expert on its meaning.

Happy Anniversary!

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Mar 2007, 13:02

Dadaist wrote:
Happy Anniversary!

Thanks.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 25 Mar 2007, 22:07

Porty wrote:
I must confes I haven't looked at the PCATS website for ages. I was taking the lead from the following and from dc Cairns claim at a recent CC meeting that in a show of hands at a PCATS public meeting there was overwhelming support for housing. Apparently this qualifies as a community endorsement.

I must stand corrected again. The show of hands that Dc Cairns refered to didn't take place at a PCATS meeting. It was Public Meeting held by the CC at Portobello Town Hall, my apologies. Its not a material error but an error all the same.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 25 Mar 2007, 22:38

Porty wrote:
Porty wrote:
I must confes I haven't looked at the PCATS website for ages. I was taking the lead from the following and from dc Cairns claim at a recent CC meeting that in a show of hands at a PCATS public meeting there was overwhelming support for housing. Apparently this qualifies as a community endorsement.

I must stand corrected again. The show of hands that Dc Cairns refered to didn't take place at a PCATS meeting. It was Public Meeting held by the CC at Portobello Town Hall, my apologies. Its not a material error but an error all the same.

I think you are mistaken Porty. I was at that meeting and can verify that it was not a show of hands which took place, but was in fact a paper consultation.