I'm not trying to bring politics to bear on the forum - but tonight I can't get the thought of Ken Bigley, the British hostage in Iraq, out of my head.
One cannot even contemplate the kind of fear that must be going through his head, having lost his two co-hostages in the last 48 hours.
God help him.
Ken Bigley
The "Iraq Body Count" internet site monitors and counts up documented and reported deaths of Iraqi civilians since the allied invasion. Whilst it doesn't in any way deny that the Hussein regime killed a lot of people too, it is partisan inasmuch as it is only focused on civilians killed since this latest invasion.
The latest count when I checked this morning, at a minimum, is 12,800.
I really hate Stalin, but sometimes you can't beat a good tyrant for a quote which has a certain ring of truth to it. Stalin lampooned how the west latch on to indivuduals whilst ignoring larger numbers of those killed (the obvious irony is that he was the worst butcher of them all) and said :
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."
Ken Bigley went to Iraq by his own volition. I know he is a fellow countryman, but I'm afraid I can't quite share Jamesie's sentiment.
The latest count when I checked this morning, at a minimum, is 12,800.
I really hate Stalin, but sometimes you can't beat a good tyrant for a quote which has a certain ring of truth to it. Stalin lampooned how the west latch on to indivuduals whilst ignoring larger numbers of those killed (the obvious irony is that he was the worst butcher of them all) and said :
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."
Ken Bigley went to Iraq by his own volition. I know he is a fellow countryman, but I'm afraid I can't quite share Jamesie's sentiment.
Absolutely no-one deserves to die, no matter what the right and wrongs of the situation, and whether they are Iraqi or British.
And whilst it's arguable that this chap is "innocent", in my mind he is slightly less innocent than the people we massacred in their thousands in order to destroy the infrastructure which him and his ilk went out to earn big bucks to fix.
Did you know there are 2 economies in Afghanistan? There are even separate shops for all the people from the aid agencies and foreign governments to spend their dollars in. The locals (who inhabit a much more stark economy) refer to them as the new Taliban except they all drive about in 4WDs with the windows blacked out.
Nope, still not feeling any compassion.
And whilst it's arguable that this chap is "innocent", in my mind he is slightly less innocent than the people we massacred in their thousands in order to destroy the infrastructure which him and his ilk went out to earn big bucks to fix.
Did you know there are 2 economies in Afghanistan? There are even separate shops for all the people from the aid agencies and foreign governments to spend their dollars in. The locals (who inhabit a much more stark economy) refer to them as the new Taliban except they all drive about in 4WDs with the windows blacked out.
Nope, still not feeling any compassion.
I am not going to get into this any further. I do not want to find myself at odds with anyone. I simply repeat my previous statement - no-one deserves to die like that. The fact that millions have died like that, and in a worse manner, sometimes not even by the hand of humankind, should not prevent compassion for the person we are aware of at the moment.
Not to have compassion - I am genuinely appalled and horrified.
Not to have compassion - I am genuinely appalled and horrified.
Jay
'Jay - a noisy chattering European bird of brilliant plumage' OED
'Jay - a noisy chattering European bird of brilliant plumage' OED
And yet our tax money directly paid for the very same fear and desperation in the minds of the Iraqi parents whose kids we dropped TNT on.
Unlike wangi, I do care about the rights and wrongs of how the situation came about, as it's only through an appraisal of said rights and wrongs that one can reach one's own conclusions in any given situation.
Let's say, hypothetically, that Portobello was liberated from the tyranny of New Labour (joke) by a forceful invasion staged by a peace-loving and democratic alliance of North Koreans and Welshmen. In the course of getting rid of the old regime, 6 members of my close family get wiped out. It just so happens that the overseers of the project to rebuild the flattened town hall are Welsh and North Korean, and not only do they live a slightly different lifestyle to me (there's no electricity or running water down Bath Street yet), they are protected by the same troops who unfortunately caused the collateral damage which happened to be my sister, neice, wife, daughter, brother-in-law and mother.
When I see the foreign workers making a hefty buck out of rebuilding the town hall whilst chatting and having a fag with the supposed liberators of my country - am I supposed to feel sorry for one of their number who ends up suffering in the same way as the family I just buried?
And heaven forbid if I dared take up arms against the people who liberated Portobello. Why, that would make me a terrorist!!!
Unlike wangi, I do care about the rights and wrongs of how the situation came about, as it's only through an appraisal of said rights and wrongs that one can reach one's own conclusions in any given situation.
Let's say, hypothetically, that Portobello was liberated from the tyranny of New Labour (joke) by a forceful invasion staged by a peace-loving and democratic alliance of North Koreans and Welshmen. In the course of getting rid of the old regime, 6 members of my close family get wiped out. It just so happens that the overseers of the project to rebuild the flattened town hall are Welsh and North Korean, and not only do they live a slightly different lifestyle to me (there's no electricity or running water down Bath Street yet), they are protected by the same troops who unfortunately caused the collateral damage which happened to be my sister, neice, wife, daughter, brother-in-law and mother.
When I see the foreign workers making a hefty buck out of rebuilding the town hall whilst chatting and having a fag with the supposed liberators of my country - am I supposed to feel sorry for one of their number who ends up suffering in the same way as the family I just buried?
And heaven forbid if I dared take up arms against the people who liberated Portobello. Why, that would make me a terrorist!!!
Yes wangi I do, and very passionately.
This man works as a contractor maintaining equipment for the U.S. military - an organisation which has been maiming people my entire life.
James Cameron, the late Guardian journalist, used to point out the irony about how when the U.S. military went somewhere new in Vietnam, they would helpfully take with them a bunch of doctors and a stock of artificial limbs for children.
So which equipment is it he maintains? Is it the cluster bombs? Is it the coffee machine for the staff at Abu Ghraib prison? Does he fold up the body bags? I care not.
In my mind there is zero objective difference between the man who shoots the gun, the man who says "fire" and the man who feeds both killers their bacon and sausage the next morning.
I don't think I've strayed into politics yet. As far as I know, this is current affairs - I'm only stating facts and my opinion.
Maybe if I said something like "the Iraqis have a right to fight back" then that would be overtly political.
This man works as a contractor maintaining equipment for the U.S. military - an organisation which has been maiming people my entire life.
James Cameron, the late Guardian journalist, used to point out the irony about how when the U.S. military went somewhere new in Vietnam, they would helpfully take with them a bunch of doctors and a stock of artificial limbs for children.
So which equipment is it he maintains? Is it the cluster bombs? Is it the coffee machine for the staff at Abu Ghraib prison? Does he fold up the body bags? I care not.
In my mind there is zero objective difference between the man who shoots the gun, the man who says "fire" and the man who feeds both killers their bacon and sausage the next morning.
I don't think I've strayed into politics yet. As far as I know, this is current affairs - I'm only stating facts and my opinion.
Maybe if I said something like "the Iraqis have a right to fight back" then that would be overtly political.
Dadaist explained the situation in Iraq very well. We fortunately are not in either of the scenario's - Listening to BBC Scotland this morning, one guy mentioned that people were being warned not to go to Saudi Arabia by the FCO, but nothing apparently posted about going to Iraq?
I cannot begin to contemplate what Mr. Bigley is thinking/ experiencing right now - perhaps he has had to witness the beheading of the two Americans, knowing that he may be next - what a price he may have to pay for the crumbs from the table.
I cannot begin to contemplate what Mr. Bigley is thinking/ experiencing right now - perhaps he has had to witness the beheading of the two Americans, knowing that he may be next - what a price he may have to pay for the crumbs from the table.
Iraq's got a helll of a bigger warning than SA on the FCO site:Gemini wrote:Dadaist explained the situation in Iraq very well. We fortunately are not in either of the scenario's - Listening to BBC Scotland this morning, one guy mentioned that people were being warned not to go to Saudi Arabia by the FCO, but nothing apparently posted about going to Iraq?
FCO wrote: Iraq
This advice has been reviewed and reissued with an amendment to the Summary. The overall level of the advice reflects the increase risk of kidnap.
SUMMARY
* We advise against all but essential travel to Iraq. The security situation is dangerous and there continue to be widespread outbreaks of violence. Even essential travel to Iraq should be delayed, if possible.
* The threat to British nationals remains high. Since the beginning of March 2004, 11 British nationals have been killed and several others seriously injured in terrorist incidents. Terrorists and insurgents continue to target British, international and other interests in Iraq. Targets include hotels where British and other nationals may stay, as well as civilian vehicles and aircraft.
* Following the kidnapping of three Western hostages on 16 September from the Mansur District of Baghdad, and a further threat aimed at British nationals in Mansur, we urge all British nationals in Iraq to consider whether their presence in Iraq is essential at this time.
* Any British nationals in Iraq should, as a matter of urgency, review their security arrangements and protection and seek professional advice on whether they are adequate. These arrangements should cover: security at the workplace, at the place of residence and travel. Where security is not adequate, British nationals should either immediately move to premises within guarded areas and avoid unprotected travel outside these more secure areas, or leave Iraq as soon as possible.
* The British Embassy in Baghdad will only be in position to offer limited consular assistance for the foreseeable future. There are also very limited consular facilities in Basra.
[SNIP]
Representative of what?ras wrote:I think this topic is in seriously bad taste and am disgusted that it is felt justifiable to discuss the value of this man's life. I only hope that others viewing this website do not regard some of the opinions as representative.
Ras you are obvioulsy upset, are you of the opinion that this story should not be discussed in public at all?
.....but you just added to it - keeping the topic alive and continuing it!ras wrote:I think this topic is in seriously bad taste and am disgusted that it is felt justifiable to discuss the value of this man's life. I only hope that others viewing this website do not regard some of the opinions as representative.
Anyway we weren't discussing the "value" of this mans life - an unfortunate pun on your behalf given that this is a hostage situation.
We were, as far as I am aware, abiding by the rules of the forum.
I do share your opinion though - I too hope that others viewing this website don't think that anyone here supports unjustified incarceration by and of anyone.
You're right - we should insist that only the exact things suffered by those actually detained by US and Brit forces should be exacted on western hostages.
Never mind the fact that the US holds entire countries to ransom, or that the minimum number of civilians killed since their illegal invasion is now 12960 (it was only 12800 when this thread started).
Yes, we should insist that the hostage takers only :
1) arrest and intern without trial
2) ship to a foreign country, although being careful not to make it their own country as what they are doing is illegal after all
3) humiliate, beat, torture and murder their detainees
Yes, you're right. It's important to point out the differences between one Brit hostage and the thousands who have suffered and died since this illegal (in the opinion of the UN Secretary General) invasion and occupation.
Because it's when you point out the differences that you start to notice all the similarities...
Never mind the fact that the US holds entire countries to ransom, or that the minimum number of civilians killed since their illegal invasion is now 12960 (it was only 12800 when this thread started).
Yes, we should insist that the hostage takers only :
1) arrest and intern without trial
2) ship to a foreign country, although being careful not to make it their own country as what they are doing is illegal after all
3) humiliate, beat, torture and murder their detainees
Yes, you're right. It's important to point out the differences between one Brit hostage and the thousands who have suffered and died since this illegal (in the opinion of the UN Secretary General) invasion and occupation.
Because it's when you point out the differences that you start to notice all the similarities...
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mr magnolia
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I would like to ask anyone who has been "horrified" by the death of this man - are you equally horrified by each Iraqi civilian death also?
If not, please explain your thinking. I'm having a hard time understanding it from any other perspective than the conclusion that country singer Steve Earle came to when explaining what enabled the Bush administration to link in the attack on Afghanistan with the Sept '11 deaths - that is when people value their own nationals over those of a foreign land.
I fear the reprisals that might be meted out by our troops over there. Because when the Sun calls on the armed forces to "nail the ba$***s" I doubt if there will be equal levels of horror should the odd one or two bits of collateral be caught up in our righteous fury.
If not, please explain your thinking. I'm having a hard time understanding it from any other perspective than the conclusion that country singer Steve Earle came to when explaining what enabled the Bush administration to link in the attack on Afghanistan with the Sept '11 deaths - that is when people value their own nationals over those of a foreign land.
I fear the reprisals that might be meted out by our troops over there. Because when the Sun calls on the armed forces to "nail the ba$***s" I doubt if there will be equal levels of horror should the odd one or two bits of collateral be caught up in our righteous fury.
Er - how come it's you that gets to decide when the debate stops? Please explain the criteria you have now applied which meant that it was ok for you to make your post, but not ok for me to make mine.wangi wrote:Sorry, I must have missed the bit where the US hacked off peoples heads... Or made ransom demands.Dadaist wrote:Yes. And did you notice his situation is exactly that of the Guantanamo detainees, right down to the cage and the orange jumpsuit.
I thought this was a forum both literally and figuratively - and a forum specifically for discussion. Not only does saying "give it a rest" carry no real value in that context, it also directly contradicts the fact that you were decidedly unrestful yourself in the very thread you have sought to silence.
I think it's quite easy to see where I'm coming from - I object to people dropping TNT on kids and it stems from there. If there is a particular part of my argument you don't understand, or fail to see its relevance to Ken Bigley, please highlight the particular statement.wangi wrote:Dadaist, I think your posts are in bad taste and twisting this guys fate into mear political ammunition.
And I've re-read my posts on this topic and don't see where you're coming from...
What has happened to this guy is disgusting, and that's my last post on this thread.
This man knew the risks he was taking, and was making large amounts of money in a poor country, working alongside/for an occupation force which is hated across the planet by millions.
It simply isn't possible to remove his plight from its political context and I make no apologies for this.
Wangi is of the opinion that I am twisting this man's fate for political purposes. If I really wanted to win votes, do you think I'd be saying half the stuff I have in this thread?
I would like nothing more than for Ken to be alive and well and earning a buck somewhere nice. Because if that were the case, it would probably also be true that a lot more people who it is easier to argue are objectively innocent would be alive, and prosperous, as well.
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mr magnolia
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In my case Dadaist, and I suspect in most others too, the answer is YES.Dadaist wrote:I would like to ask anyone who has been "horrified" by the death of this man - are you equally horrified by each Iraqi civilian death also?
Don't forget though that most of us are quite simple and its much easier to empathise with a single individual than with a mass of individuals - thats why human experience of horror situations is generally expressed, sooner or later, in terms of 'people' stories, whether in the papers, books, tv, or cinema.
There is nothing wrong, in my view , with holding dear the feelings that you so clearly do, and indeed are shared by many many people, AND being able to feel and express feelings in response to a more particular event or person.
While I dont disagree with any of your comments about the politics of the events in Iraq and their linkage to all the deaths and torments, I do disagree profoundly with your apparent consequential assertion that somehow 'people' are at fault for expressing their own horror at the fate of an individual.
That to me smacks a little too much of the mirror of the arrogance also shown by Bush and Blairs' respective administrations in their dismissal of the concerns regarding the fate of the prisoners that they hold. After all, in their eyes, they are right to hold these people - its just that most of the rest of the human race disagree with them.
Beating the drum quietly in honour of one humans life doesn't prevent people from wanting to also bang it loudly in honour of all others - I think on that point its' your tone rather than your content that is causing any offence / disagreement on this thread.
Every Day Counts
You make a good point, and well argued, Mr Magnolia.
I'm not, or at least didn't think I was, saying that anyone is to blame for mourning the loss of this man. My argument isn't with them or you.
If anything, you are quite correct by making a comparison of me to the arrogance of Blair and Bush. I am very political, and have taken sides in this conflict.
My position is not a moderate one. Whilst I don't particularly seek to offend peace loving types like yourself, it's simply in my nature to wind up people who say things like "you don't see the US cutting off heads" because of the enormous inherent irony and condradictions therein.
My main reason for being sorry at Ken's death is because of my assumptions of the mindset of the average squaddie and his capacity for reprisal. This is a highly arrogant stance, but I would rather be arrogant than be a racist.
I'm not, or at least didn't think I was, saying that anyone is to blame for mourning the loss of this man. My argument isn't with them or you.
If anything, you are quite correct by making a comparison of me to the arrogance of Blair and Bush. I am very political, and have taken sides in this conflict.
My position is not a moderate one. Whilst I don't particularly seek to offend peace loving types like yourself, it's simply in my nature to wind up people who say things like "you don't see the US cutting off heads" because of the enormous inherent irony and condradictions therein.
My main reason for being sorry at Ken's death is because of my assumptions of the mindset of the average squaddie and his capacity for reprisal. This is a highly arrogant stance, but I would rather be arrogant than be a racist.