Pedal - funding unsuccessful

[Bob Jefferson]

As warmer weather approaches, are the meat and fish traders going to start using refrigerated units to keep their produce fresh? Just a thought.

What PEDAL should be doing is encouraging local traders to stock organic, sustainably-produced food, not setting up in competition with them. Or they could take on a High Street shop themselves and sell locally-produced organic fruit, veg etc and be a real part of the High Street community.

[Porty]

Rereading Tommy's post, in response to my traders conversations report. I feel its more than is more than a lttle snidey. Its the way he finds things "interesting" but doesn't seem at all interested in my offer to share my findings with PEDAL. He goes on to say that PEDAL may conduct their own survey and it will be "interesting" to compare results. Implication being that I'm making it up or perhaps even worse; lying. PEDAL seem defensive and suspicious.

I have also had an eye and ear witness account of Diana Cairns, a PEDAL person, conversation in Williamsons shop today. She was quizzing the staff seeking to find out whether I had been in touch to ask about the Market and to establish what was said? Presumably she was hoping to discover that I'd made it up.

She was told that sales tend to be weaken when the market is on in the morning but recover in the afternoon and overall Williamsons do support it.

To me this behaviour does not indicate an organisation that is open or geunine about inviting fact based debate.(there's quite a few of those in Porty). They seem more intent on denigrating and/or mailgning anyone who dares to challenge the commercial sense of their project (s).

[wangi]

Rereading Tommy's post, in response to my traders conversations report. I feel its more than is more than a lttle snidey. Its the way he finds things "interesting" but doesn't seem at all interested in my offer to share my findings with PEDAL. He goes on to say that PEDAL may conduct their own survey and it will be "interesting" to compare results. Implication being that I'm making it up or perhaps even worse; lying. PEDAL seem defensive and suspicious.

Do you not just think it's simply the reality of online conversation where the small nuances of face-to-face conversation can be lost? And by the same token Tommy might well feel you're coming across a bit aggressive?

I'd also not be surprised if PEDAL have a funding obligation to carry out their own survey anyway.

PEDAL seem ... suspicious.

[Porty]

Do you not just think it's simply the reality of online conversation where the small nuances of face-to-face conversation can be lost?

That can most definitely play a part. An experienced poster gets to recognise styles, rhythms and gets a feel for the true meaning. My least favourite, which I've seen here just twice before is the "Hiya Folks!!!!- now: allow me to explain why you are cocks."

And by the same token Tommy might well feel you're coming across a bit aggressive?

And he would be right, i don't mean it but I'm obviously lumbered with my style.

I'd also not be surprised if PEDAL have a funding obligation to carry out their own survey anyway.

Of course they don't. However, how else is Tommy going to get the "conclusive proof" he stipulates?

I'm assuming he talks on behalf of PEDAL. Their position is; we are having a market and our HOPE that it is good for Portobello Traders is justification enough. Contrast this with their demand that Traders have to "conclusively prove" the market is bad for business. It is the wrong way round and quite offensive.

A more considerate and measured response may have been to take my findings at face value, ask me for the details I offered, recognise there is an issue and take some action.

Prior to me talking with other businesses I knew there was a takings issue for our business on market Saturdays. I discovered that there is a number of others experiencing the same. I also discovered that the majority of businesses I talked to saw no effect on takings. PEDALS' hopes that the market is good for the high street appear to be unfounded.

I was unaware that PEDAL actively leaflet on a Saturday to lure people from the High Street- they may as well open a craft stall outside urban Igloo.

An inappropriate remark by me “the market kills the high street” led to a discussion about the effect of the market on the high street. I did some research and it appears there are indications the effect is not good. A few traders expressed concern that a once a month market may become more frequent, as happened in other parts of the city. PEDAL are made aware of the concern and the traders responses and what do they have to say?

There were concerns that the market may become more frequent, perhaps fortnightly then weekly.

No plans for fortnightly or weekly at present. Interesting idea though …

...Not the reaction of a group that wants to have a serious discussion about a coordinated approach. More of a wise guy response containing a thinly veiled threat.

[rmolehusband]

..Not the reaction of a group that wants to have a serious discussion about a coordinated approach. More of a wise guy response containing a thinly veiled threat.

I'm sorry Porty, but I think any real chance of a serious discussion here is being stifled by your aggressive and confrontational approach. Some of your comments have been petulant, some paranoid and some just plain rude.

I've re-read Tommy's response several times and, even allowing for the fact that I agree with most of it so am perhaps inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt, I see nothing snide, see no threats and don't for believe he is in any way questioning the integrity of your phone poll.

Shame, your poll results and thoughts were interesting (as in interesting, not 'interesting') but your point is somewhat lost in your own vitriol.

[Tommy Black]

Wangi and RMolehusband’s comments are spot on.

I'm sorry Porty, but I think any real chance of a serious discussion here is being stifled by your aggressive and confrontational approach.

Porty, your comments show massive anger and a good dose of paranoia. You need to sort that out. When the red mist descends you can’t see anything clearly.

An experienced poster gets to recognise styles, rhythms and gets a feel for the true meaning.

So your special and can discern the ‘true meaning’ of what folk are saying better than others yeh? You don’t think it might be the case that, like every other human being on the planet, your interpretation of what people say or do is coloured by your own pre-conceptions and prejudices? Maybe in this case they are being coloured in a big way by past experiences with other folk who sit on local groups, as alluded to elsewhere in your postings. Better to start each encounter fresh as you can I say.

I was keen to take up your offer of further details from your poll, but your confrontational approach just made me not want to invite any further chat with you. Like most folk I’m not crazy about confrontation on a daily basis. And comments in your last post are basically saying “I’ve never met this guy Tommy but I bet he’s a devious and arrogant ****”.

To me this behaviour does not indicate an organisation that is open or genuine about inviting fact based debate.

Sorry Porty this is a bit rich – what is open and genuine about misinterpreting my comments then attacking them while hiding behind an Avatar name?! I am genuinely interested in your poll results and genuinely interested in discussion about a co-ordinated approach to regenerating the High St. Not being interested would have meant not being on this forum at all / responding to posts.

And I’m genuinely happy to meet up face to face to discuss all this. If you’re willing I think that would get us much further than the on-line thing this time.

[Tommy Black]

Bob, I think you’re right the whole fish thing is a bit complex. Am fairly sure Pollock, and any unpopular fish, will be more sustainable. Until of course they become popular …

There is also the question of how and where the fish is caught - in protected fisheries? Using beam trawling? This has huge impact on the sea floor habitat and results in loads of by-catch - dead stuff thrown back in. That’s where the MCS certification can come in handy.

There’s also the question of where it was flown in from (if anywhere). For example, Youngs prawns (sold in supermarket shelves across the country) used to be harvested, cooked, peeled, packaged and frozen in Fraserburgh. But due to messed up global economics they are now transported to China for the processing side of things (the factory in Fraserburgh closed down) then back here to our supermarket shelves. Cos it’s cheaper to do that.

Organic fish – yes only farmed can be organic. Better than un-organic farmed. The feed, shit and pesticides from non-organic farmed salmon have big impacts on the surrounding marine environment, and the over-crowding has huge impact on spread of disease (requiring yet more pesticides) and animal welfare.

Like your ideas for how PEDAL could start doing things ref. High Street. They were suggested by others in the past and are on the PEDAL to do list. God knows if we’ll ever find the time to do them, I for one am running out of energy having spent massive amounts of voluntary (as well as some paid) time on PEDAL projects over the past five years…

[Porty]

And I’m genuinely happy to meet up face to face to discuss all this. If you’re willing I think that would get us much further than the on-line thing this time.

Me too. My phone number is 07710435319 happy to meet you my name is Stevie McIntyre.

[Grunk]

This is all very exciting, I'm going to get some popcorn...

I think one thing was missing from your survey/questions though, which was:

Since the market has started, has there been an overall increase or decrease in takings?

I'm thinking that there might be the possibility that market encourages people out to Porty on the first day of the month, but may also have a knock on effect that encourages people to shop locally when the market isn't on. The flip side is that it is only the people who shop locally who frequent the market. Or maybe it's somewhere in between.

It is probably a hard question to answer, in a time economic turmoil when people will generally be drifting to the cheaper (supermarket) alternatives anyway.

[Puerto bella]

I went to the first market but haven't been back since. Can't really say why, it hasn't been a conscious decision. Now that I think about it, it seemed a nice idea but wasn't quite what I thought it would be and seemed quite pricey for what it was. Like most people I shop locally and in supermarkets including the daily trip to Scotmad. They need some local competition to get their act together or let another operator do a better job like the Leith one.

[Porty]

I think one thing was missing from your survey/questions though, which was:

Since the market has started, has there been an overall increase or decrease in takings?

I did ask a general "how is trade?" question and most said it was a bad time on the High Street, worst in memory some said. The market cannot be solely responsible for a sustained period of stagnant or falling sales on the High Street. I'm talking about a noticeable drop on that particuiar Saturday in the morning and into the afternoon. Which is THE peak trading time on Porty High Street.

If one doubts the importance of footfall they only need look at rental levels and empty shop units on the High Street. Most of the empty units are on the "wrong" side of the street and the shops on the busiest (in terms of footfall) part of the High Street pay the highest rents.

[Porty]

Met with Tommy and must publically apologise. I don't think I could have been more wrong with my interpretation of his post.

[Tommy Black]

Thanks Porty.

Grunk, I'm not sure that anything other than a detailed, independent economic impact assessment (or whatever it's called) could answer your questions. Maybe this is something PEDAL should look to do at some point, but of course it all costs ...

Puerta Bella, yes I'd admit the first market didn't quite hit the spot, with a couple stalls selling 'tat' and not enough food stalls. Hopefully things have improved. A full list of traders for each month can be found here - http://pedal-porty.org.uk/food/portobel ... ic-market/

At the foot of that page is a wee piece put together by our Food Worker, Peter Upton, that tries to explain why organic food often costs a bit more than conventionally produced stuff.