New Portobello High School - PPAG Judicial Review

[Porty]

Again, ho hum.....I do not know Alison Connelly, and I do not know about anything that she has said, or not said. It is you who conjured this up.

Not really, he quoted a letter Alison had published in the Evening News. Has pointed out her PPAG status, taken her at her word and availed the information to you in order to refute the "speculation" accusation. PPAG, in this case Alison, chose to boast about their fundraising prowess. That was some 3 years ago- So why the delay?

Returning to your earlier question. No- I was not suggesting PPAG have raised funds from people without divulging what the money would be used for. Don't get me wrong, they have done so, I cite the St James coffee morning, they were less than transparent about their identity and purpose. They blotted their copybook with all of Porty's churches after than one.

But I wasn't suggesting that in my above posts.

[Porty]

Epy- here's a reminder of the PPAG pop quiz,

http://forum.talkporty.org/viewtopic.ph ... =+pop+quiz

I'm not certain the QM; Tom Nimmo was fully aware the funds raised would be used to delay the School and to try and unpick a democratic decision that had support from almost the entire city. Only he would be able to tell us. EDIT:
It seems that Tom did eventually understand the reality of the intent of PPAG fundraising and was decent enough to admit it:

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:04 pm
Porty, if I remember correctly I gave my time, via a pop quiz and disco, to the fight to save Portobello park and the golf course because both were under threat at the time. In the unlikely event of me getting a share of any compensation I will immediately donate it to the high school - wherever it is. As you have seen above I am prepared to look at the bigger picture and I am one of those unusual people who can see the other point of view and adapt my thinking and opinions as circumstances change. I now agree that the school should not be refurbished as the decant of pupils would be far too disruptive to their education. Where on earth would they be decanted to anyway? If it is true that the only thing holding up the school being built in the park is the debate about common good then some people have a very skewed definition of what is in the common good. If the park is truly the only realistic place that a new school can be built then there is an inevitability to it that should not be treated in King Canute fashion.

in 2007 Tom gave his time partly because he thought the golf course was still under threat. The council removed this threat in mid 2006. Someone must have been feeding Tom false information, a bit like the shit that's still on th PPAG website, funny that.

[Epykat]

You're absolutely right. Thanks for that Porty.

Still don't think they raised enough money that night to fund 3 days in Court though. Maybe I should have bought that final strip of raffle tickets. It might just have tipped the balance over. Maybe that's what caused the delay.

[Porty]

Still don't think they raised enough money that night to fund 3 days in Court though.

Was someone claiming they did?

[seanie]

As it happens, today the Scottish Government launched a consultation on Protective Expenses Orders;

The usual rule in civil cases is that the 'loser pays'. These proposals would cap the amount of legal costs that a challenger would have to pay the other side, if they lose, at £5,000. This is balanced by a proposal to introduce a similar cap - of £30,000 - on the defending party's liability to pay the challenger's legal costs.

I think something along those lines is probably a good idea, as at least parties will know their maximum liability from the outset and can plan accordingly.

[Scoop]

Again, ho hum.....I do not know Alison Connelly, and I do not know about anything that she has said, or not said. It is you who conjured this up.

Not really, he quoted a letter Alison had published in the Evening News. Has pointed out her PPAG status, taken her at her word and availed the information to you in order to refute the "speculation" accusation. PPAG, in this case Alison, chose to boast about their fundraising prowess. That was some 3 years ago- So why the delay?

Returning to your earlier question. No- I was not suggesting PPAG have raised funds from people without divulging what the money would be used for. Don't get me wrong, they have done so, I cite the St James coffee morning, they were less than transparent about their identity and purpose. They blotted their copybook with all of Porty's churches after than one.

But I wasn't suggesting that in my above posts.

Not really. This is what he said - "They've been touting their legal opinions for years, so it wasn't as if they had to seek advice from a fresh starting point. They'd also been boasting of their fundraising successes for years previously."

"They" is not the same as "Alison Connelly" and his use of emotive words like "touting" and "boasting" give the reader a clear indication of his viewpoint. One could assume that he was trying to influence the reader with such language but that would be speculation on my part. Regardless, Seanie needs to check the dictionary for "posturing" . this may have been what "they" were doing when "they" were boasting, but then again, it may not. It is never a good idea to try and figure out the motives of others.

[seanie]

...should I ever meet Alison Connelly, or hear of anything that she may have to say, I will have no reason not to believe what she is saying in the first instance. Unless of course I know a different truth from hers.

So when presented with a statement from Alison Connelly from June 2009 that "fundraising events to finance this legal challenge have been extremely well supported", do you draw a provisional conclusion that;

a) fundraising events to finance this legal challenge had been extremely well supported? Or;

b) fundraising events to finance this legal challenge had not been extremely well supported? Or;

c) neither of the above.

Give reasons for your answer.

[Scoop]

I don't care one way or the other, so I have no need to draw any conclusions. It is none of my business. And it should be none of yours. But if I did care, and if I did draw a conclusion one way or another, I do not have to justify to anybody. It would be my opinion, informed, or otherwise. However, your point reminded me of something which has stayed with me for a long time. When I was learning to drive, my driving instructor set a multiple choice test for me. One of the questions went like this:

The car in front of you is indicating right. does it mean:

a. It is turning right
b. It is turning left
c. It's right indicator is working

I picked "c", it was obvious to me even then that just because something seems to mean one thing, it does not necessarily follow that that is the case. However, I didn't get the question right about which way to turn the wheel when skidding on ice. Maybe it's a girl thing.

[seanie]

Or maybe it's an evading the question thing?

[Scoop]

It doesn't matter. Just because you ask a question it doesn't follow that you have some automatic right to an answer. It really is none of your business.

[Makaveli]

But it is in people's interest if the funds were raised under false pretences non?

Not only that but as other have asked why has there been such a big delay?

If my kids were due to be going to the new school I would be pretty pissed off that a couple of people who think that the park is an extension of their back garden have tried to thrown a spanner in the works out of what appears to be just pure wickedness.

[seanie]

You were accusing me of unfounded speculation that fundraising had gone well.

So I go back to my earlier point.

I'm not speculating that fundraising had gone well. I'm relying on the claim by Alison Connelly that fundraising had gone well.

Are you suggesting Alison Connelly wasn't telling the truth?

What evidence do you have to support that?

You may not have known that Alison Connelly was a leading figure in PPAG, or that she had written to the Evening News claiming fundraising had gone extremely well.

But ignorance on your part, does not mean speculation on my part.

[Scoop]

But ignorance on your part, does not mean speculation on my part.

... and vice versa.

[seanie]

So why do think Alison Connelly wasn't telling the truth about the fundraising?

[Puerto bella]

Scoop and Sean - you need to get Seashell to help out. Lets face it - you're never going to agree and you're struggling to understand each other's positions - call in the Mediator.

[Scoop]

You were accusing me of unfounded speculation that fundraising had gone well.

So I go back to my earlier point.

I'm not speculating that fundraising had gone well. I'm relying on the claim by Alison Connelly that fundraising had gone well.

Are you really relying on Alison Connelly's claim? Really? When you say - "They've been touting their legal opinions for years, so it wasn't as if they had to seek advice from a fresh starting point. They'd also been boasting of their fundraising successes for years previously." Do you really expect anyone to believe that you were relying on Alison Connelly when expressing yourself in this way? Maybe you didn't mean to come across as a doubter, but your language is questioning in it's manner. Jury's out on this one for me.

[Scoop]

Scoop and Sean - you need to get Seashell to help out. Lets face it - you're never going to agree and you're struggling to understand each other's positions - call in the Mediator.

Is Seashell a mediator? Never mind me and Seanie, maybe Seashell can mediate between the Council and PPAG. What an oversight! Why has this not been suggested before? All that time and money, all those unnecessary delays. Makes you wonder. Well, it makes me wonder. I can't comment on the wonderings of others.

[seanie]

Do you doubt that they've been touting the fact that they obtained a legal opinion contrary to the Council's position as far back as 2006?

Really?

Because it's been referred to by PPAG in numerous flyers, letters, e-mails, in delegations to the Council, on their web site and elsewhere since 2006.

[Scoop]

But it is in people's interest if the funds were raised under false pretences non?

Not only that but as other have asked why has there been such a big delay?

If my kids were due to be going to the new school I would be pretty pissed off that a couple of people who think that the park is an extension of their back garden have tried to thrown a spanner in the works out of what appears to be just pure wickedness.

Coffee morning = pay money, get a cup of coffee. Sit down and have a natter with your friends. Someone else washes up. Who really cares where the money is going so long as the coffee is hot and the buns are fresh. Should there be more to it than that? Really?

[seanie]

And do please clarify why I'm wrong to place any reliance on the claims of Alison Connelly.

Why do you think no reliance can be placed on what she says?

[Puerto bella]

There was a talk from a Mediator at the CC a while back. A lot of resistance to the technique from some people as I recall. Its never been new to P'bello - there is a Mediator on the CC also.
Part of the problem in building on the fragments of the relationships which are left is the shit stirring on this forum and the airing it all in public with no real repercussions for those who make accusations on here and assume they are right because the party being accused doesnt come forward to defend themselves on a community gossip forum.
Many people I speak with, and no I'm not going to name them in triplicate Sean to satisfy your wants, dont give two hoots about the school or the park or the council or any of you but they know something really unhealthy is going on.

[Scoop]

Do you doubt that they've been touting the fact that they obtained a legal opinion contrary to the Council's position as far back as 2006?

Really?

Because it's been referred to by PPAG in numerous flyers, letters, e-mails, in delegations to the Council, on their web site and elsewhere since 2006.

There you go again, "touting" for support. Maybe I didn't make it clear. I don't care one way or another about who said what, to whom, and why. What I will say is that in all business deals / transactions / whatever word you'd like to use that you find fit, there is always a lot of chess playing goes on, there is a lot of gamesmanship, there is a lot of posturing. It's a game of chess. It's a game of poker. It's a game. Nobody with half a brain, (and let's assume that both the council and PPAG have more than that) shows their hand at the outset. Who would want to do that? Ever?

[Scoop]

And do please clarify why I'm wrong to place any reliance on the claims of Alison Connelly.

Why do you think no reliance can be placed on what she says?

Did you leave the room? That has already been responded to.

[Epykat]

But it is in people's interest if the funds were raised under false pretences non?

Not only that but as other have asked why has there been such a big delay?

If my kids were due to be going to the new school I would be pretty pissed off that a couple of people who think that the park is an extension of their back garden have tried to thrown a spanner in the works out of what appears to be just pure wickedness.

Coffee morning = pay money, get a cup of coffee. Sit down and have a natter with your friends. Someone else washes up. Who really cares where the money is going so long as the coffee is hot and the buns are fresh. Should there be more to it than that? Really?

False pretences? What false pretences? What exactly were they saying to these people as they held a gun to their heads to extract money from them? I went to a coffee morning and a pop quiz. I enjoyed myself. I parted with my money and I did it all of my own accord because I'm an adult and it's up to me what I spend my hard earned cash on. Why do you keep asking us why there's been such a big delay? We went for a coffee - end of.

[seanie]

And do please clarify why I'm wrong to place any reliance on the claims of Alison Connelly.

Why do you think no reliance can be placed on what she says?

Did you leave the room? That has already been responded to.

Responded to perhaps, answered no.

[seanie]

There was a talk from a Mediator at the CC a while back. A lot of resistance to the technique from some people as I recall. Its never been new to P'bello - there is a Mediator on the CC also.
Part of the problem in building on the fragments of the relationships which are left is the shit stirring on this forum and the airing it all in public with no real repercussions for those who make accusations on here and assume they are right because the party being accused doesnt come forward to defend themselves on a community gossip forum.
Many people I speak with, and no I'm not going to name them in triplicate Sean to satisfy your wants, dont give two hoots about the school or the park or the council or any of you but they know something really unhealthy is going on.

Maybe you should start a new topic.

[Scoop]

and no I'm not going to name them in triplicate Sean to satisfy your wants, .

So it's not just me.......? I was beginning to wonder. Speculate. Assume.

[Puerto bella]

The Portobello question - are you with them or with us?
Sounds like sectarianism

[Puerto bella]

So it's not just me.......? I was beginning to wonder. Speculate. Assume.

Only speculate if you want to be cross examined by Sean Watters QC

[seanie]

Sounds like bullshit to me. Who has posed that question?

[Puerto bella]

Its the topic suggestion you asked for - keep up

[seanie]

Its the topic suggestion you asked for - keep up

The topic heading is "New Portobello High School - PPAG Judicial Review".

[Scoop]

Its the topic suggestion you asked for - keep up

[Puerto bella]

Maybe you should start a new topic.

To assist your recollections.
You're reminding me of a wee dog I used to have years ago that loved running around in a circle chasing its tail and getting not very far.

[seanie]

Mmmm...

Part of the problem in building on the fragments of the relationships which are left is the shit stirring on this forum and the airing it all in public with no real repercussions for those who make accusations on here and assume they are right because the party being accused doesnt come forward to defend themselves on a community gossip forum.

That may be a topic worthy of discussion, but it seems a little tangential to the one at hand.