New Portobello High School - PPAG Judicial Review

[Puerto bella]

If they loose

Are you deliberately trying to wind me up?

Everyone else does

[Epykat]

Epykat, I know these people are your friends

There are a few people I could have said that about on here at one time.......

[Chas]

It would appear the Supreme Court would be a possibility.
Equally, if PPAG win the appeal, the council may wish to go to the Supreme Court. Having gone this far down the road, what other option would they have realistically?

Indeed, and would [we] the supporters of building the school on the park not want them to do that?

Let's consider another possibility: the school, which all agree is no longer fit for purpose, is declared structurally unsound in the next couple of years. Or a child is seriously injured. Can PPAG then be taken to court on the grounds of their delaying tactics?

I very much doubt it.

[lg1726]

With regard to the previous comments about the legal costs; below is a parliamentary question at Scottish Parliament regarding the costs to date around a similar scenario in Aberdeen regarding the proposed bypass. The small minority of objectors have lost the original judicial review, subsequent appeal and have now lodged an appeal at the supreme court. All as you will see at very significant cost which CAC have not as yet sought to reclaim!

Question S4W-02051: Kevin Stewart, Aberdeen Central, Scottish National Party, Date Lodged: 03/08/2011
To ask the Scottish Executive what the legal costs have been of the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route project and what proportion of these costs is associated with dealing with objections.

Answered by Keith Brown (22/08/2011):
The cost to date associated with the provision of legal services on the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route is approximately £1.13 million. This cost covers the provision of legal services in relation to the public local inquiry, current legal challenges against the project, complaints to International bodies (e.g. Aarhus Convention) and other planning appeals. The cost excludes staff costs incurred by Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government

Would love to see CEC seek to reclaim the full cost of all this from PPAG. I suspect that the £75k is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Sceptic]

Have heard Special meeting of Community Council to be on 23rd /24th April, to date know not where.

Anyone else heard any rumours, or is it all being kept hush hush to deny Hoipoloi?

[Makaveli]

I was going to bring this issue up the other day lg1726, as being an Aberdonian, I have followed the above case closely.

Not too unlike the case with PHS the Aberdeen bypass is being held up by a bunch of NIMBY's who have gone through challenge after challenge just cos they can. There is one man at the heart of it called William Walton who is a lecturer in planning at Aberdeen Uni (here is his profile http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~wpg018/staff/per ... ge=waltonw - I hope you note that for one he is clearly not from Aberdeen and two he can't even spell the word brief!!!) who is treating this case like a person case study just cos he can. He has cost tax payers huge sums of money and doesn't seem to care.

Like our PPAG this lot are VERY unpopular up north and are in a very large minority but seem to think they are the majority.

Feel free to e-mail and let him know what you think of him if you so desire - w.walton@abdn.ac.uk

And yes I am pissed off that Hibs won today.

[tufty]

seashell has made a valid point, there is a possibility that the school will fail it's pupils dramatically and suddenly. I was teaching maths in an old building when the sash and case window suddenly blew in, narrowly missing the back of my head, the old heavy window was held to the wall by only the ropes that had caught. My class didn't learn anything else that day.
although CEC will not sue PPAG a young person will end up paying a price due to what they have forced to happen. I wonder if they can live with that knowledge, or will they simply ignore that too.

[lg1726]

Hi to fellow Aberdonian Makaveli, I lived there for 26 years and one son went to the Grammar School then we moved here and the other went to PHS - what a difference! I was chair of the school board at the time of the rebuild due to the fire and have a first hand understanding of the massive impact of the decant as a result of that on the pupils over the years that it took to complete and this has had a very profound effect on my views about the need to both rebuild PHS, but absolutely NOT on site. I cannot overemphasise the huge impact such disruption would have the pupils and would hate to see that happen at any cost and the loss of porty park is quite frankly, a small price!

As you say, there are a number of parallels in both these cases and i suspect that PPAG are watching this one. However, with one difference, so far there has been no move to reclaim costs from the Aberdeen NIMBYs. Oh, and last i saw you man was pretty much reduced to a one man band with most of the rest having peeled off along the way, as the legal fees rose no doubt!

[Makaveli]

I went to the Grammar and my older sister was part of the decant!!! I was lucky enough to be starting first year just after the new sections re-opened so it never affected me but I remember my sister being badly affected and feeling lucky that I was not part of it!!!

For the sake of the kids of PHS I hope they don't have to suffer a decant because of a few NIMBY's.

Yes the parallels are quite uncanny between the two cases - I just wish both would be settled the right way!!!

[Mark Cameron]

Makaveli may I just take this oppertunity to say "go on the Hibs"
However there are small matters like Hibs being in line to win the SC for the 1st time in 110 years or there are much more important Issues like the building of a school fit for 1400 porty kids.

[Makaveli]

For that comment I hope you make it to 111 years

But as you say it is much more important we get the school built

[lg1726]

there is only one way to settle this!! i suspect you would have been a contemporary of my older son Makaveli - it's a small world!

[Bob Jefferson]

drop_colour_kids.pdf

(357.95 KiB) Downloaded 228 times

[Porty]

Epykat, I know these people are your friends

There are a few people I could have said that about on here at one time.......

I remember the ones you speak of. Didn't one or two get banned and the others disappeared with facts fright.

[Epykat]

Epykat, I know these people are your friends

There are a few people I could have said that about on here at one time.......

I remember the ones you speak of. Didn't one or two get banned and the others disappeared with facts fright.

And some sold out for a cheap laugh.....

[Mark Cameron]

Porty did you ever find out what the story was with the traders taking down the drop the appeal posters?

[Porty]

Yes I did. The high heid yins at PFANS are currently trying to extract an apology and retraction from their counterparts at PPAG. If it is forthcoming, no more will be said about the matter. That's all I can say for now.

[Porty]

Just because I dont fly doesnt mean I dont want Edinburgh to have a good airport.

I can see what you're saying PB but people are only reacting to previous treatment. In the same way, just because someone doesn't want a school in a certain place doesn't make them a moron or a liar.

Someone who doesn't want a school in a certain place is neither a moron or a liar. Can you give just one example where, here on TP, people have been branded morons or liars just for opposing a school on the park. I don't believe you will find one. Should you not, will you correct your assertion- no chance. A ticking off accompanied by a request to grow up, is the best we can hope for.

[portygeoff]

Sorry to be a bit slow but could you let me know when the next CC elections are please.

[Maria]

Sorry to be a bit slow but could you let me know when the next CC elections are please.

They are held every 3 yrs and the last elections were Sep 2009, so it looks as if they are due this year. The Scheme for Community Councils states, however, that

.....elections shall be held on a three-yearly- cycle out with the Local Government election year, in the months of September and October on dates to be determined by the City of Edinburgh Council.

I'm not quite sure what to make of that

[Maria]

The Scheme for Community Councils states, however, that

.....elections shall be held on a three-yearly- cycle out with the Local Government election year, in the months of September and October on dates to be determined by the City of Edinburgh Council.

I'm not quite sure what to make of that

Just had confirmation that the next elections are indeed postponed, because of the Local Government elections and will now be held in October 2013.

[Mark Cameron]

That's convenient for some - isn't it. Could this be challenged? What valid reason do our cc have to postpone (other than it says we can in the rules)?

[wangi]

Will split the specific PCC chat off to own thread in due course.

mcdryburn - to be fair this isn't Portobello Community Council specific, it's across the board I believe.

[Maria]

That's convenient for some - isn't it. Could this be challenged? What valid reason do our cc have to postpone (other than it says we can in the rules)?

As Wangi says, mcdryburn, the decision has been made by the City of Edinburgh Council.

[Mark Cameron]

That's convenient for some - isn't it. Could this be challenged? What valid reason do our cc have to postpone (other than it says we can in the rules)?

As Wangi says, mcdryburn, the decision has been made by the City of Edinburgh Council.

Sorry I misread your original explanation and thought CEC gave individual CCs the option to postpone for a year if the elections fell due in the same year as a local election.

[wangi]

PDF

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-eveni ... -1-2243668

Campaigners seeing green in new Porty push

A NEW high school in Portobello would take up just three per cent of green space in the area, supporters of the plans claimed today.

Opponents of the scheme, Portobello Park Action Group (PPAG), had said that “a substantial area of public open space” would be lost.

But the analysis, produced by Portobello for a New School (PFANS), insisted it would take up just 2.5 hectares – including parking and surrounding landscaping – of the 74 hectares of parks, pitches and common good land in the Portobello catchment.

PFANS added that a further 1.4 hectares of all-weather playing fields at the school would be available for public use. Its figures were based on data in the city council’s Open Space Audit.

...

[tufty]

Looking at the big picture. Beautifully done, true and complete. Thankyou.

[wangi]

Update on the petition for an emergency meeting of Portobello Community Council. It has been confirmed that this will be held on Thursday 26 April 7:30pm at Portobello Community Centre, Adelphi Grove.

To all concerned.

Portobello Community Council has consistently maintained a neutral stance on issues concerning the site for a new Portobello High School. The recent petition, however, asking for a Special Meeting, 1) to discuss the content of the Portobello Park Action Group website, 2) to request that PPAG remove certain material from its website, and 3) to request that PPAG withdraw its appeal in the matter of the judicial review, would require PCC to support the views of one section of the community over those of another. It also raised concern over whether the proposed business for debate was competent.

Advice was therefore sought immediately from the Council’s community council liaison officer, who in turn sought advice from the Council’s Legal Services department. Advice was finally received today, 19th April.

The advice received is that Portobello Community Council can not enforce any party to alter or delete material from any website over which it does not have control, and that it can not enforce PPAG to withdraw its appeal to the Court of Session.

PCC could request that PPAG remove material from its website and could request PPAG to withdraw its appeal but such action would breach PCC’s position of neutrality and would be viewed as taking sides.

I am fully aware that CCs should be responsive to their communities and should listen to their views. I know how important the whole issue of a new high school is for everyone in Portobello. The Standing Orders for community councils require that a Special Meeting of a community council should be held when a competent petition is lodged. As part 1 of this petition is competent, a Special Meeting of PCC has been arranged for Thursday, 26th April, at 7.30 in Portobello Community Centre, Adelphi Grove.

This meeting will allow PCC to listen to the views of the public and those who signed the petition. Points 2 and 3 of the petition can be discussed but PCC will not vote on these points for the reasons of neutrality explained above. PCC will however note the views expressed by the public on all three points and pass these views on to the Council.

PCC has also been advised that matters pertaining to the Court of Session appeal, such as the issue of common good land, cannot be discussed, as anyone making such comments might be deemed to be in contempt of court.

Points 2 and 3 of this petition for a Special Meeting request PCC to take sides. A community council should not support the views of one section of the community over the views of another.

John Stewart,
Chair, Portobello Community Council.

L/

[Makaveli]

So what is the point of the PCC if they can't take a stance on issues? I maybe being stupid here but I really don't understand what the PCC is for then?

[wangi]

Makaveli, I understand the confusion...

The general purpose of community councils is to act as a voice for their local area. This will involve them articulating the views and concerns of local people in their area on a wide range of issues of public concern and make representations to their local authority, other public sector bodies and private agencies on matters within their sphere of interest.

It is essential that these views be demonstrated to be accurately representative of the community. Accordingly, the community council will have in place, in consultation with the local authority, recognised consultative mechanisms to validate their views and devise strategies to secure greater involvement by all sectors of the community.

Lots more at http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Gover ... blications and http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/820/co ... y_councils

[Makaveli]

Is John Stewart a member of PPAG?

[Mark Cameron]

Makaveli, I understand the confusion...

The general purpose of community councils is to act as a voice for their local area. This will involve them articulating the views and concerns of local people in their area on a wide range of issues of public concern and make representations to their local authority, other public sector bodies and private agencies on matters within their sphere of interest.

It is essential that these views be demonstrated to be accurately representative of the community. Accordingly, the community council will have in place, in consultation with the local authority, recognised consultative mechanisms to validate their views and devise strategies to secure greater involvement by all sectors of the community.

I'm confused too. Where is the mechanism and evidence that demonstrates that the PCC are accurately representing the community?

[Bob Jefferson]

As with PFANS and most other groups of this kind, PPAG will not have a formal membership as such. There will be a small core of decision-makers, and an important subset is obviously the petitioners, but beyond that all they will have will be a small email distribution group of trusted supporters. I rather suspect that John does not want the school to be built on the park but he will maintain a 'neutral' position, as will other members who don't want to be drawn into it either.

[Makaveli]

But as Diana Cairns is a vociferous member of PPAG one can only assume that she has a large say in the PCC e-mail that was distributed.

It smacks of conflict of interest to me and the refusal to commit to one side or the other surely makes the PCC look a bit daft considering that they 'take sides' in other local issues.

[seanie]

But they only take sides on important matters.

Like whether a tea shop should have 4 tables or 6.